Re: 2009-10 Chicago Bulls Thread

[UMFan83]

I want to be bothered by this now, but you know the Bulls brass doesn't give 2 craps that we apparently seem to be worse since the Tyrus/Salmons trade.

 

you mean since noah got hurt

 

It's not just that though. The Bulls went from statistically the best rebounding team in the NBA to being outrebounded 109-68 the last 2 games (33-16 offensively). That's not just Noah.

[Sammy Sofa]

but you know the Bulls brass doesn't give 2 craps that we apparently seem to be worse since the Tyrus/Salmons trade

 

Why should they?

[UMFan83]

Nobody should even think for a second that the Bulls front office actually thinks they improved the current team with the trades.

 

Of course. But I honestly think they thought the Bulls would still be a playoff team and probably 95% as good as before the trades. They still might be, but they are clearly worse. No one should/will get mad at GarPax if the trades lead to a max FA signed. They had to do the trades for that. Oh and also, the Bulls didn't need to trade Tyrus, they were just sick of his crap. They could have kept him and renounced his rights early on in the offseason and I believe they'd be around the same spot cap wise.

[UMFan83]

but you know the Bulls brass doesn't give 2 craps that we apparently seem to be worse since the Tyrus/Salmons trade

 

Why should they?

 

They shouldn't. My post was saying don't get mad at this season, the Bulls brass doesn't care so why should we. This season isn't important.

[Sammy Sofa]

Wait, wait, wait...you think they're significantly worse because of the trades? And not because of the injuries to key players? Guh? How does that work? How do you know the former is true with the latter occuring?

[Sammy Sofa]

but you know the Bulls brass doesn't give 2 craps that we apparently seem to be worse since the Tyrus/Salmons trade

 

Why should they?

 

They shouldn't. My post was saying don't get mad at this season, the Bulls brass doesn't care so why should we. This season isn't important.

 

Well, yeah. Some of us have been saying that the entire time.

[UMFan83]

Wait, wait, wait...you think they're significantly worse because of the trades? And not because of the injuries to key players? Guh? How does that work? How do you know the former is true with the latter occuring?

 

I they both feed into the mix. Part of it is injuries, part of it is the trades (which is really killing us in the post defensively and rebounding wise) and part of it is not having the depth to withstand everything that happened.

[UMFan83]

but you know the Bulls brass doesn't give 2 craps that we apparently seem to be worse since the Tyrus/Salmons trade

 

Why should they?

 

They shouldn't. My post was saying don't get mad at this season, the Bulls brass doesn't care so why should we. This season isn't important.

 

Well, yeah. Some of us have been saying that the entire time.

 

Yeah it's just a reminder to frustrated fans like GeoSoto

[Sammy Sofa]

Wait, wait, wait...you think they're significantly worse because of the trades? And not because of the injuries to key players? Guh? How does that work? How do you know the former is true with the latter occuring?

 

I they both feed into the mix. Part of it is injuries, part of it is the trades (which is really killing us in the post defensively and rebounding wise) and part of it is not having the depth to withstand everything that happened.

 

True in regards to depth, though I don't think the trades are nearly as damaging as you're presenting. Salmons was generally better on defense (though hardly anything to really talk about) but Thomas was touch and go as to what you'd get at best. Overall they're pretty much a wash. If they were actually fully healthy there'd be little difference in the team pre and post-trades, as we've already seen.

[17 Seconds]

salmons blows this season and tyrus barely played

[David]

salmons blows this season and tyrus barely played

 

 

salmons had been playing well after a very slow start and is playing even better for the bucks.

 

 

not that i'm siding with anyone in any argument that might be going on here.

[SpongeWorthy]

You simply aren't watching the games if you think there hasn't been a downgrade (and a fairly sizable one at that) from Salmons/Tyrus to Flip/Warrick.

 

Salmons is a much better player than Flip and while Warrick can give you some offense, he's a horrific positional defender and rebounder.

[SpongeWorthy]

Also, watch the negativity build up when the Bulls reel off a long losing streak with the tough schedule coming up and then try to say we look as attractive to FAs as we did before.

 

Guys who are going to get paid no matter where they go will have a visceral reaction to the Bulls looking like crap and falling out of the playoff race in a weak conference.

[Sammy Sofa]

Also, watch the negativity build up when the Bulls reel off a long losing streak with the tough schedule coming up and then try to say we look as attractive to FAs as we did before.

 

Guys who are going to get paid no matter where they go will have a visceral reaction to the Bulls looking like crap and falling out of the playoff race in a weak conference.

 

Please stop with this ridiculous theory. The FA's can dry their tears over playing for such a bad team with the massive amounts of money the Bulls push their way...oh wait, those are tears of joy over the massive amounts of money.

[Sammy Sofa]

You simply aren't watching the games if you think there hasn't been a downgrade (and a fairly sizable one at that) from Salmons/Tyrus to Flip/Warrick.

 

Salmons is a much better player than Flip and while Warrick can give you some offense, he's a horrific positional defender and rebounder.

 

Yes, there's been somewhat of a downgrade, but who gives a [expletive]? Salmons had to go and the best way to do that was to get expirings in return. Salmons is a slightly above average player at best...what the hell did you think they would get in return if they're looking to free up cash? It's not like they went from being a good team to being a bad one. Salmons and Tyrus were not the differences in this team looking good or looking bad.

[SpongeWorthy]

Are you talking about the massive amounts of money that is actually substantially less than the massive amounts of money they would get by staying on their current team?

[Sammy Sofa]

Are you talking about the massive amounts of money that is actually substantially less than the massive amounts of money they would get by staying on their current team?

 

Yeah, Bosh, stay in Toronto. It's exactly the same as playing in a market like Chicago and with a player like Rose for the same money. Man, the Bulls are in such a shitty position, what with them having all that money in a podunk town without any players anyone would want to play with.

[Sammy Sofa]

Sponge, do you seriously think that any FA evaluating this team from here on out would focus on what could have been with two humps like Tyrus and Salmons as opposed to realizing that any collapse that occurs between now and the end of the season will be due to GLARINGLY OBVIOUS INJURIES TO KEY PLAYERS?

[SpongeWorthy]

Sponge, do you seriously think that any FA evaluating this team from here on out would focus on what could have been with two humps like Tyrus and Salmons as opposed to realizing that any collapse that occurs between now and the end of the season will be due to GLARINGLY OBVIOUS INJURIES TO KEY PLAYERS?

 

It's hard to say. I'm talking about potential risk factors and you're totally ruling them out as any sort of consideration. I think my way works better if you're trying to run a team. Although I would be wary if a free agent thought the Bulls collapse was totally attributable to Joakim Noah's injury. If losing Noah, a good but by no means great player, can turn your team into a dumpster fire then maybe they're more than one missing piece away from being a championship contender.

 

If you thought Salmons was going to opt in then you had to trade him or Kirk. I would've dealt Kirk but apparently the FO is too in love with him or the rest of the league just knows how much Kirk sucks and wouldn't deal. That's fine.

 

The Bulls have no money advantage. At BEST, they're at a slight disadvantage when it comes to dollars. Now other things come into play like the city, the quality of the roster, and a million other little variables. All I'm saying is that you want to have as many checks in your pro column when it comes to wooing a stud free agent. On top of that, there's the intangible factor of going into an offseason with positive momentum.

 

Just do a little thought experiment: If the Bulls come off the rails the rest of the year and miss the playoffs do you think they'd be in as good a position to get a true superstar free agent as they would've been if they had the money going into LAST summer after the Boston series? I don't think you can very reasonably argue that they would be as attractive. The atmospherics matter. How much they matter is up to interpretation.

 

This isn't like what the Bears are going through right now where they can just outbid other teams. The Bulls can't outbid anyone unless it comes down to overpaying for the David Lee's and Anthony Morrow's of the world. My sites are set higher because that's how far the team away is.

[Sammy Sofa]

If losing Noah, a good but by no means great player, can turn your team into a dumpster fire then maybe they're more than one missing piece away from being a championship contender.

 

I'm not talking just about Noah. If they collapse it's likely because injuries continued to sideline or hinder Deng and/or Rose and, to a lesser extent, Kirk and Miller. Gibsons's own PF issues might crop up as well. Noah alone is unlikely to sink this team as they have shown. And let's stop talking about the one missing piece just being anybody. If the Bulls get one of the big 3 FA's then we're talking a HUGE piece that drastically improves this team.

 

If you thought Salmons was going to opt in then you had to trade him or Kirk. I would've dealt Kirk but apparently the FO is too in love with him or the rest of the league just knows how much Kirk sucks and wouldn't deal. That's fine.

 

I wish they had dealt both. It certainly doesn't sound as if there wasn't demand for Hinirch. I have to wonder how much Rose's repeated statements in favor of Kirk played out behind the scenes.

 

The Bulls have no money advantage. At BEST, they're at a slight disadvantage when it comes to dollars. Now other things come into play like the city, the quality of the roster, and a million other little variables. All I'm saying is that you want to have as many checks in your pro column when it comes to wooing a stud free agent. On top of that, there's the intangible factor of going into an offseason with positive momentum.

 

How are they at a disadvantage? They have more than enough to shell out a max contract to a top shelf FA. They have a big market city. They have a young superstar player plus several other decent young players. You're vastly overstating the impact that the end result of this season on signing someone. It'll come down to money and whether or not they want to play with Rose with everything else a very distant second.

 

Just do a little thought experiment: If the Bulls come off the rails the rest of the year and miss the playoffs do you think they'd be in as good a position to get a true superstar free agent as they would've been if they had the money going into LAST summer after the Boston series? I don't think you can very reasonably argue that they would be as attractive. The atmospherics matter. How much they matter is up to interpretation.

 

The Celtics series was a complete and total aberration. It's ridiculous to act like the Bulls, or really any other team, has a chance to replicate what many are calling one of the best playoff series of all time. Most playoff series are ultimately rather unremarkable in the grand scheme of things. You're seemingly basing your argument around an obvious exception to the rule. You're letting a very unusual end to the season last year cloud your judgement.

 

This isn't like what the Bears are going through right now where they can just outbid other teams. The Bulls can't outbid anyone unless it comes down to overpaying for the David Lee's and Anthony Morrow's of the world. My sites are set higher because that's how far the team away is.

 

The Bulls' sales pitch is already set: max salary plus Rose in a market like Chicago. Anything else, barring a bizarre repeat of last year or better, is just superfluous. Still having Salmons wouldn't make a repeat of last year or better any more likely.

[SpongeWorthy]

They're at a money disadvantage because the max deal to reup with your own team is bigger than it is if you leave. Or if anyone wants to sign in Texas or Miami they don't have to pay a state income tax--which is a big, big chunk of money over the life of a contract.

 

Chicago is a great market but so are Manhattan and Brooklyn. The Bulls have a better team than the Nets and Knicks but the Knicks can sign two max guys and maybe you get to play with Wall and Lopez in NJ. Miami is a really nice market too and they no state income tax AND they can sign a max guy alongside Wade. Cleveland is clearly on the precipice of a championship. The Bulls have a leg up on Toronto which should give us some confidence. They probably have a leg up in the non-money issues over Utah and Phoenix as well but I'm not crazy about Boozer or Amare anyway. They're nice but not going to put this team over the top, IMO.

 

I understand the Bulls sales pitch, and it is attractive but it doesn't exist in a vacuum either. If this team starts to slide badly there will be a lot of negativity surrounding the team from the front office on down. It certainly won't look good. If you don't think that sort of negative image matters just look at how the league wide disdain for Jerry Krause torpedoed our last real efforts in a loaded FA class. It won't be THAT bad for the Bulls, fortunately, but you'd like to avoid anything comparable.

[Sammy Sofa]

I guess I'm not flipping out over it because I figure (and have always hoped) they end up with Bosh anyways. At least your last post made a bunch of much more reasonable arguments beyond "FA's won't want to play with the Bulls if they stink the rest of the year." While some markets have different tax issues I think the plus of playing in Chicago and with a player like Rose will also make more avenues to merchandising deals open up. For a guy like LeBron or Wade that's pretty redundant, but for a guy like Bosh that can be a big deal. And yeah, the Knicks can sing two max FA's, but the Bulls arguably don't have to since they basically already have one in Rose. They can sign a max FA and then still have a decent chunk of change to sign themselves a solid role player. That's a hell of an improvement to a major market team that already has a core of good young players plus one superstar. Those are the factors that will matter most as to whether they they sign a max FA or not.

[Soul]

To me, Bosh is a must this offseason. They should go up there and shower him with money & women. He seems like the obvious choice, and the Bulls cannot fail this offseason to land a big fish.

[UMFan83]

Bulls losing by double digits at halftime. Charlotte and Milwaukee winning (Milwaukee up double digits over Cleveland), Miami close with Atlanta. Typical day for the Bulls lately.

[bcl412]

Bulls losing by double digits at halftime. Charlotte and Milwaukee winning (Milwaukee up double digits over Cleveland), Miami close with Atlanta. Typical day for the Bulls lately.

 

If everyone doesn't get healthy they aren't making the playoffs. Not a big deal because they aren't going to win a championship anyways and as long as they pull of a FA deal I can live with the rest of this year.