Cubs have Cameron on their radar..

[17 Seconds]

Kosuke Fukudome is an .800 OPS center fielder with awesome defense. And he's already under contract.

 

Kosuke doesn't play awesome defense in CF, and costs roughly twice as much as what Cameron will cost.

It's not an either or. They're paying Fukudome regardless.

 

Kosuke is capable of playing RF.

 

The point is, Cameron's value as a CF is diminished, since they can put Fukudome there.

 

Since Cameron is way better than Kosuke defensively in center, no... it's not. It improves the defense greatly in center, AND in right. Kouke is just average in center. Cameron is well above average. Kosuke is also above average in right. You're upgrading the defense in 2 outfield spots with one move.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Cameron would be an OK option if we were looking for a number 6 or 7 hitter, but were not, we need, as Lou said a middle of the order run producer. Mike Cameron is not that. At best he could be a number 2 hitter. Mike Camerons line will more than likely be worse than Milton Bradleys, but who cares, hes a great guy. If we knew that Soriano and Soto would rebound next year, I suppose we could sign Cameron for 5-6 mil, if we have to eat Bradleys contract and hopefully Miles' for desert.

 

Why are you so obsessed with lineup order?

 

Sombody asked you who the better options are. You still haven't said any.

 

How are we going to afford a "middle of the order hitter"? We might not even be able to afford to offer Harden arbitation, and we're supposed to be able to get some badass hitter this offseason?

 

Mike Cameron is an .800 OPS center fielder with awesome defense. There's a very very good chance that is our best option.

The better option is the guy were already [expletive] paying. Im sick of the clubhouse cancer noise. Bradley was dissapointing this year, but thats all you can blame him for, not the disapointing play of Soriano, Soto, or anyone else. As Ive said before, if Milton Bradley helps the Cubs win the 2010 World Series, there will be a lot of forgiveness to go around. Even if we dump Bradley for nothing and sign Cameron for 10 mil, were essentialy paying Cameron 30 mil to not be an a hole.

[17 Seconds]

Cameron would be an OK option if we were looking for a number 6 or 7 hitter, but were not, we need, as Lou said a middle of the order run producer. Mike Cameron is not that. At best he could be a number 2 hitter. Mike Camerons line will more than likely be worse than Milton Bradleys, but who cares, hes a great guy. If we knew that Soriano and Soto would rebound next year, I suppose we could sign Cameron for 5-6 mil, if we have to eat Bradleys contract and hopefully Miles' for desert.

 

Why are you so obsessed with lineup order?

 

Sombody asked you who the better options are. You still haven't said any.

 

How are we going to afford a "middle of the order hitter"? We might not even be able to afford to offer Harden arbitation, and we're supposed to be able to get some badass hitter this offseason?

 

Mike Cameron is an .800 OPS center fielder with awesome defense. There's a very very good chance that is our best option.

The better option is the guy were already [expletive] paying. Im sick of the clubhouse cancer noise. Bradley was dissapointing this year, but thats all you can blame him for, not the disapointing play of Soriano, Soto, or anyone else. As Ive said before, if Milton Bradley helps the Cubs win the 2010 World Series, there will be a lot of forgiveness to go around. Even if we dump Bradley for nothing and sign Cameron for 10 mil, were essentialy paying Cameron 30 mil to not be an a hole.

 

I think most of us would love if the situation could be salvaged, but that's unlikely. It's not what we're talking about. We're talking about possible replacements, because that's what the reality probably is.

[Keener98]

Saying Fuku is an 800OPS CF is being a little generous dont you think? Fuku had a low 700 OPS last year, and has an OPS close to 800 this year. Im not quite sure hes established himself as an 800OPS CF, especially when being compared to Cameron, who has been over 800 6 times in his career, and hasnt posted an OPS under 750 since he was 25 years old.

[Tracer Bullet]

Are we better off with 2 guys that play good defense and post .800 OPS (give or take) in CF and RF or an .800 OPS, average defensive CF and taking a shot on a better hitting, worse fielding RF? In other words, should we leave Kosuke in CF where his .800 OPS (if he does it again) plays better and his defense is acceptable or go with a lighter hitting OF and hope we get enough from Lee, Ramirez, and Soto? Seems like adding Cameron means we're relying on Soto and Soriano to bounce back pretty significantly. Or am I missing something?

[MSG T]

Because of some of the bickering I haven't read every post in the thread, so this may have been addressed.

 

Let's say they can afford Cameron, say 1/$6-7 mil, and move Fuku to RF, would it be a good thing to platoon him(Fuku) with Fox. I realize the D would take a hit with Fox out there, but would the offensive boost of him hitting LHP instead of Kosuke be worth it? You'd be talking about roughly 1/3 of the PAs, so I don't know where the advantage would be. Just thinking out loud.

 

Also, I like the idea of going back to a straight platoon with Baker/Fonts, assuming they are limited in payroll and can't add a SS or 2B. It may not be ideal, but I'd have to think there'd be a decent improvement out of 2B numbers doing that.

 

Just those two things, if they are truly limited, should improve the offense and defense, plus give them better options off the bench than they started the season with.

 

 

Granted if Soriano and Soto don't turn it around, it won't matter much anyway.

[MSG T]

Are we better off with 2 guys that play good defense and post .800 OPS (give or take) in CF and RF or an .800 OPS, average defensive CF and taking a shot on a better hitting, worse fielding RF? In other words, should we leave Kosuke in CF where his .800 OPS (if he does it again) plays better and his defense is acceptable or go with a lighter hitting OF and hope we get enough from Lee, Ramirez, and Soto? Seems like adding Cameron means we're relying on Soto and Soriano to bounce back pretty significantly. Or am I missing something?

 

 

I don't think we'll really know until the ownership is finalized and Ricketts gives some indication of where the payroll will be next year. I operating under the assumption there will be a small boost, but that they won't be able to afford any big pieces. That way I'm not disappointed in January when they can't make many moves. If I'm wrong and the bump payroll $20 mil, great. But again, I don't think anyone really knows that yet.

 

Personnally, I want them to get the best players they can afford. If they can afford a big stick for RF, great. If the best the can do is Cameron for CF and move Kosuke to RF, well, it's not the greatest idea, but it's not a bad one either.

[SouthSideRyan]

Let's say they can afford Cameron, say 1/$6-7 mil, and move Fuku to RF, would it be a good thing to platoon him(Fuku) with Fox. I realize the D would take a hit with Fox out there, but would the offensive boost of him hitting LHP instead of Kosuke be worth it?

 

Even if it's not Fox, having Kosuke in RF would make it easier to find a right handed platoon partner rather than spending 3M on Reed Johnson next year.

[davearm2]

Saying Fuku is an 800OPS CF is being a little generous dont you think? Fuku had a low 700 OPS last year, and has an OPS close to 800 this year. Im not quite sure hes established himself as an 800OPS CF, especially when being compared to Cameron, who has been over 800 6 times in his career, and hasnt posted an OPS under 750 since he was 25 years old.

It's being generous to assume either guy will OPS 800 next year... Fuku because he's been close but never all the way to .800, and Cameron because he'll be 37 years old. It's a wash.

[davearm2]

The point is, Cameron's value as a CF is diminished, since they can put Fukudome there.

 

If Bradley's gone, then the Cubs need a new OF. They don't need a new CF specifically.

 

Missed this at first. The reason I'd be ok with Cameron is because I think he'd be a short-term deal, and cheap compared to his skill. Even if Kosuke's defense is marginalized by being in RF, it's still valuable. You're improving your defense in 2 positions by making this move. The alternative(as far as guys that are better hitters than Cameron) has you spending huge money on Bay or Holliday, and I just don't think we'll be able to afford it. It's hard to forecast anything considering ownership, but I'm not comfortable banking on a 30M payroll increase.

I guess in the end the good-defense-in-two-spots rationale is the best argument in favor of Cameron.

 

I can think of better hitting, worse defense RFs that would cost something similar to Cameron. Bobby Abreu and Jermaine Dye come to mind in about 30 seconds of thinking. Or Jake Fox of course, for much less $$$.

[davearm2]

The better option is the guy were already [expletive] paying. Im sick of the clubhouse cancer noise. Bradley was dissapointing this year, but thats all you can blame him for, not the disapointing play of Soriano, Soto, or anyone else. As Ive said before, if Milton Bradley helps the Cubs win the 2010 World Series, there will be a lot of forgiveness to go around. Even if we dump Bradley for nothing and sign Cameron for 10 mil, were essentialy paying Cameron 30 mil to not be an a hole.

Amen to this.

 

The only thing that's certain IMO is that paying Bradley to play elsewhere will ultimately make the Cubs a worse team, no matter which alternative is chosen.

[SouthSideRyan]

Dye, Abreu, and Fox are all terrible RFs.

[davearm2]

Dye, Abreu, and Fox are all terrible RFs.

Yep and so is Adam Dunn. It's obvious the defense is going to take a hit compared to Cameron CF - Fukudome RF. That's a given.

[SouthSideRyan]

Dye, Abreu, and Fox are all terrible RFs.

Yep and so is Adam Dunn. It's obvious the defense is going to take a hit compared to Cameron CF - Fukudome RF. That's a given.

 

But none of them are close to Dunn offensively. (Holy crap did Dye fall off a cliff this year) They're actually somewhat similar to Cameron offensively. (Fox is somewhat of a wild card I guess, but I don't see a 900 OPS out of him for a full season

[Little Slide Rooter]

Im wondering if there is any chance of us getting Bay or Holliday. I know it would be expensive, but as of now, Jeff Baker has done all he can to show us that we dont need to go after a second baseman. If we let Harden fly, there are much worse number 5 starters than Marshall or Gorz out there. Between Fontenot, Fox, Hoffpauir, Scales, Blanco, Fuld, Colvin, Hill, and the unfortunate existance of Aaron Miles, theres no reason whatsoever to sign any bench players. Save a few more bucks by letting Johnson, Grabow, and Gregg go as well. Therefore, if Ricketts were to give Hendry 1 last chance to clean up his mess, just go for Bay or Holliday and thats the only offseason move wed need to make.

[Halman]

Im wondering if there is any chance of us getting Bay or Holliday. I know it would be expensive, but as of now, Jeff Baker has done all he can to show us that we dont need to go after a second baseman. If we let Harden fly, there are much worse number 5 starters than Marshall or Gorz out there. Between Fontenot, Fox, Hoffpauir, Scales, Blanco, Fuld, Colvin, Hill, and the unfortunate existance of Aaron Miles, theres no reason whatsoever to sign any bench players. Save a few more bucks by letting Johnson, Grabow, and Gregg go as well. Therefore, if Ricketts were to give Hendry 1 last chance to clean up his mess, just go for Bay or Holliday and thats the only offseason move wed need to make.

 

Slim and none. One will be in pinstripes the other will be in Boston Grays.

[dew1679666265]

I can think of better hitting, worse defense RFs that would cost something similar to Cameron. Bobby Abreu and Jermaine Dye come to mind in about 30 seconds of thinking. Or Jake Fox of course, for much less $$$.

 

Dye 2009 OPS: .796

Abreu 2009 OPS: .817

Cameron 2009 OPS: .790

 

Abreu and Dye are bad to terrible defenders, while Cameron is excellent. I wouldn't be opposed to Abreu for somewhere around what he's making this year ($5 million), but there's at least a decent chance Cameron will be more valuable than either of those players next year.

 

As for Fox, he's also very bad defensively in right field and we don't know for sure whether he can hit better than Cameron or not. He's at an .825 OPS so far this year, but his August OPS (the month with his most ABs this year) is only .746.

 

Here are the defensive numbers for 2009, according to UZR:

 

Fox: -2.5

Dye: -15.5

Abreu: -6.2

Cameron: 11.3

 

Fox, Dye and Abreu are all for right field, while Cameron is for center field.

[davearm2]

I'm aware of the numbers.

 

Like I said, and you just illustrated, there are several better hitting, worse defending options out there.

 

The point remains that the Cubs are not constrained to finding a CF, since Fukudome can do it.

[dew1679666265]

I'm aware of the numbers.

 

Like I said, and you just illustrated, there are several better hitting, worse defending options out there.

 

The point remains that the Cubs are not constrained to finding a CF, since Fukudome can do it.

 

Both Abreu and Dye are barely slightly better hitting right fielders and significantly worse fielding right fielders. That makes their overall value worse than Cameron's.

 

And we're not only looking at center fielders, but there's no reason not to. If there is a right fielder who is more valuable overall than Cameron would be, I'd be all for him. Problem is, that player (Bay and Holliday, for example) will almost certainly be out of our price range. Cameron is undervalued, though, and would come at a lower price than he's actually worth.

Edited September 24, 2009 by dew

[Tracer Bullet]

Abreu's EqA is .292, whereas Dye and Cameron are both .279. Not sure if makes up for the defensive difference from Abreu to Cameron, but Abreu is the better hitter. Dye is really up and down year to year.

[dew1679666265]

Abreu's EqA is .292, whereas Dye and Cameron are both .279. Not sure if makes up for the defensive difference from Abreu to Cameron, but Abreu is the better hitter. Dye is really up and down year to year.

 

Yeah, and I said I'd be ok with Abreu at around what he's making this year. There's a huge defensive difference between him and Cameron which, I think, likely makes up much of the offensive difference between them.

[Rob]

Abreu's EqA is .292, whereas Dye and Cameron are both .279. Not sure if makes up for the defensive difference from Abreu to Cameron, but Abreu is the better hitter. Dye is really up and down year to year.

 

A .292 EqA is worth about 90 EqR over 600 PA. A .279 is worth about 80 over 600 PA. Then factor in a 15-20 run lead for Cameron's defense, and then toss in an adjustment for playing CF instead of RF (and I'm not sure on this, but I want to say that was about 5 runs).

 

If you think both players are gonna put up lines like that again next year, Cameron is the easy choice.

[David]

You know who is really good at baseball? Mike Cameron. He's been good for an .800 OPS and plus defense in CF for 5 of the last 6 years. Obviously you don't want to do anything stupid like give him Ted Lilly's deal, but it's far from bad news that Hendry would be interested.

 

 

Seriously... WTF responses in this thread?

 

Cameron would be a nice addition assuming he isn't paid something insane.

 

EDIT - I see that this has been mostly straightened out in the rest of the thread...

[David]

this would be THE typical Cubs move: Get a geezer past his prime (if Cameron ever had a prime).

 

Hey. He was traded for Ken Griffey, Jr. One of the greatest players of our generation.

 

He's got to be good if the Reds got Griffey for him 10 years ago.

 

And yes, OMC, this would be the ultimate Cubs move: Sign a guy who used to be good a long time ago but is worthless now, and then the front office crows about the big-name FA we signed and how they're trying their damndest to win.

 

 

Besides successfully taking a flier on Jim Edmonds at league minimum, when the hell was the last time the Cubs have done this?

 

If anything, their most recent MO has been to overpay players coming off the best years of their career. I wouldn't be able to argue with that.

 

Your Cubs melodrama reaches insane proportions sometimes.

Edited September 27, 2009 by David

[SouthSideRyan]

this would be THE typical Cubs move: Get a geezer past his prime (if Cameron ever had a prime).

 

Hey. He was traded for Ken Griffey, Jr. One of the greatest players of our generation.

 

He's got to be good if the Reds got Griffey for him 10 years ago.

 

And yes, OMC, this would be the ultimate Cubs move: Sign a guy who used to be good a long time ago but is worthless now, and then the front office crows about the big-name FA we signed and how they're trying their damndest to win.

 

 

Besides successfully taking a flier on Jim Edmonds at league minimum, when the hell was the last time the Cubs have done this?

 

If anything, their most recent MO has been to overpay players coming off the best year's of their career. I wouldn't be able to argue with that.

 

Your Cubs melodrama reaches insane proportions sometimes.

 

He's still furious about Willie Wilson.