Carlos Marmol

[SouthSideRyan]

Heilman and Patton are currently the 11th and 12th men on the staff. If they were to pitch in a close world series game for the Cubs it would be because the game went 16 innings(Heilman) or one of the first 6 guys in the pen got hurt and the game went 16 innings (Patton)

[Little Slide Rooter]

Aside from those 2 brutal St. Louis games, Patton hasnt been completely horrible. Hes walked his share of guys, but who on the Cubs pen hasnt. I guess Im saying is that if someone great came along in a possible trade, ld let him go, but theres really no reason to dump hi just to bring up Jeff Stevens or Greg Reainhard or someone like that.

[dew1679666265]

Those are the stats you give to the other ball club as a sales pitch when we try to trade them.

 

Seriously, I don't care if their numbers have been good lately. They still suck. Florida wanted Gregg gone, and somehow we decided that someone who wasn't good enough to pitch for the Marlins was exactly what we were looking for in a world series-caliber closer. And Heilman is pretty much garbage, too. My dad is a Mets fan, and he was almost dancing in the streets when they got rid of him. Then when he got traded to the Cubs, he told me that I would learn to hate him just as much as he did. Well, he was certainly right.

 

You're saying you'd feel comfortable with Heilman, Gregg, or Patton on the mound in a close world series game? I certainly wouldn't.

 

As SSR said, Heilman and Patton don't have roles that would put them in close situations late in the game. I also never said anything about Patton, I like his potential but he's not ML ready yet.

 

As for Gregg, the Marlins wanted rid of him because he was about to make $5+ million and they don't have much of a payroll. It certainly wasn't his 120 or so ERA+s the last couple of years. Gregg can be a solid reliever and that's likely what he'll be this season.

[Cubbie Swagger]

Those are the stats you give to the other ball club as a sales pitch when we try to trade them.

 

Seriously, I don't care if their numbers have been good lately. They still suck. Florida wanted Gregg gone, and somehow we decided that someone who wasn't good enough to pitch for the Marlins was exactly what we were looking for in a world series-caliber closer. And Heilman is pretty much garbage, too. My dad is a Mets fan, and he was almost dancing in the streets when they got rid of him. Then when he got traded to the Cubs, he told me that I would learn to hate him just as much as he did. Well, he was certainly right.

 

You're saying you'd feel comfortable with Heilman, Gregg, or Patton on the mound in a close world series game? I certainly wouldn't.

 

As SSR said, Heilman and Patton don't have roles that would put them in close situations late in the game. I also never said anything about Patton, I like his potential but he's not ML ready yet.

 

As for Gregg, the Marlins wanted rid of him because he was about to make $5+ million and they don't have much of a payroll. It certainly wasn't his 120 or so ERA+s the last couple of years. Gregg can be a solid reliever and that's likely what he'll be this season.

Last time I checked, Gregg lost his role as closer in the middle of the season. That had nothing to do with salary.

 

EDIT: And I realize that Heilman and Patton would not be go-to guys in the World Series. My point was just that we need to fill out our bullpen with pitchers who are good enough to do just that. I want people in there that actually create a sense of "security" when they take the mound.

Edited June 20, 2009 by Cubbie Swagger

[SouthSideRyan]

Last time I checked, Gregg lost his role as closer in the middle of the season. That had nothing to do with salary.

 

Gregg lost his role as closer when he had nagging injuries put him on the shelf at the beginning of September.

[dew1679666265]

Last time I checked, Gregg lost his role as closer in the middle of the season. That had nothing to do with salary.

 

Florida Sun-Sentinel, Aug. 30, 2008

 

The Marlins have shut down struggling closer Kevin Gregg due to a balky left knee. Gregg had been trying to pitch through the problem. After Friday's regrettable performance he finally told manager Fredi Gonzalez he could no longer be relied upon.

 

Like SSR said, he lost the closer's role due to injury, not lack of performance. He left town because the Marlins saw a chance to unload a $5 million player for a young, promising prospect. That's their MO, no matter how good a player is.

 

EDIT: And I realize that Heilman and Patton would not be go-to guys in the World Series. My point was just that we need to fill out our bullpen with pitchers who are good enough to do just that. I want people in there that actually create a sense of "security" when they take the mound.

 

Our 4-man playoff rotation is likely to be Z, Harden, Lilly, Dempster.

 

We'll have Marshall, Gregg, Marmol, Wells, Guzman, Ascanio and one more pitcher's spot available. Both Heilman and Patton are unlikely to be on the playoff roster at the same time, much less in any kind of important role in the pen.

[TruffleShuffle]

marmol's stuff is so nasty that if he throws strikes, he's going to be very effective. that wiffle ball slider, when he starts it right at the batter and it breaks back over the plate - i can count on one hand the number of times i've seen someone make solid contact with it. he needs to get the slider over; it's a great pitch and he doesn't need to keep throwing it out of the zone trying to get people to chase.

[dew1679666265]

marmol's stuff is so nasty that if he throws strikes, he's going to be very effective. that wiffle ball slider, when he starts it right at the batter and it breaks back over the plate - i can count on one hand the number of times i've seen someone make solid contact with it. he needs to get the slider over; it's a great pitch and he doesn't need to keep throwing it out of the zone trying to get people to chase.

 

Yeah, Marmol is the classic case of a pitcher who just needs to trust his stuff and throw the ball over the plate. His movement alone will make most people miss his pitches.

[TruffleShuffle]

marmol's stuff is so nasty that if he throws strikes, he's going to be very effective. that wiffle ball slider, when he starts it right at the batter and it breaks back over the plate - i can count on one hand the number of times i've seen someone make solid contact with it. he needs to get the slider over; it's a great pitch and he doesn't need to keep throwing it out of the zone trying to get people to chase.

 

Yeah, Marmol is the classic case of a pitcher who just needs to trust his stuff and throw the ball over the plate. His movement alone will make most people miss his pitches.

 

i think marmol trusts his stuff, but i also think he tries to strike guys out on junk pitches when he should just let the nastiness of the pitch beat them. but sometimes he just can't throw strikes - i'm not sure if it's inconsistency with his mechanics or his release point, or if he's aiming the ball too much, but it's a problem that has gotten worse this season.

[dew1679666265]

marmol's stuff is so nasty that if he throws strikes, he's going to be very effective. that wiffle ball slider, when he starts it right at the batter and it breaks back over the plate - i can count on one hand the number of times i've seen someone make solid contact with it. he needs to get the slider over; it's a great pitch and he doesn't need to keep throwing it out of the zone trying to get people to chase.

 

Yeah, Marmol is the classic case of a pitcher who just needs to trust his stuff and throw the ball over the plate. His movement alone will make most people miss his pitches.

 

i think marmol trusts his stuff, but i also think he tries to strike guys out on junk pitches when he should just let the nastiness of the pitch beat them. but sometimes he just can't throw strikes - i'm not sure if it's inconsistency with his mechanics or his release point, or if he's aiming the ball too much, but it's a problem that has gotten worse this season.

 

I agree, though "trust his stuff" may not have been the best phrase. He does have a tendency to nibble, something a pitcher with his kind of stuff has no need to do.

 

You're right about this season, though. He's been much more wild than just nibbling would account for, and likewise I don't know why. The stuff is still just as good as ever, so it's almost got to be mechanical.

[Cubbie Swagger]

Our 4-man playoff rotation is likely to be Z, Harden, Lilly, Dempster.

 

We'll have Marshall, Gregg, Marmol, Wells, Guzman, Ascanio and one more pitcher's spot available. Both Heilman and Patton are unlikely to be on the playoff roster at the same time, much less in any kind of important role in the pen.

I understand that. My point is being missed again. I'm just saying that it would be nice to have pitchers who are good enough to use in clutch situations, whether it's the regular season or the WS. We have guys down there just to fill out the roster that only get used in blowouts... and I think we could use another reliable option down there to solidify things.

 

And I know nobody is really defending Patton here, but I think it's ridiculous that we have someone on our roster just because we can't send him down. If the guy isn't ready, let him go. It's not like he's gonna be the next Cy Young...

[dew1679666265]

Our 4-man playoff rotation is likely to be Z, Harden, Lilly, Dempster.

 

We'll have Marshall, Gregg, Marmol, Wells, Guzman, Ascanio and one more pitcher's spot available. Both Heilman and Patton are unlikely to be on the playoff roster at the same time, much less in any kind of important role in the pen.

I understand that. My point is being missed again. I'm just saying that it would be nice to have pitchers who are good enough to use in clutch situations, whether it's the regular season or the WS. We have guys down there just to fill out the roster that only get used in blowouts... and I think we could use another reliable option down there to solidify things.

 

And I know nobody is really defending Patton here, but I think it's ridiculous that we have someone on our roster just because we can't send him down. If the guy isn't ready, let him go. It's not like he's gonna be the next Cy Young...

 

Most teams have a reliever or two that aren't completely trustworthy. I'd rather let Patton go back to the Rockies as well, but he's not going to be the difference between making the playoffs/winning the World Series and not making the postseason. Heilman can be a solid reliever and is quite suited to his sixth reliever out of the pen role.

 

There really aren't that many bullpens that have very good to great pitchers as their sixth reliever. As long as our top five are good (which it's appearing more and more that they are), we have plenty of depth for most occasions.

[Cubbie Swagger]

Our 4-man playoff rotation is likely to be Z, Harden, Lilly, Dempster.

 

We'll have Marshall, Gregg, Marmol, Wells, Guzman, Ascanio and one more pitcher's spot available. Both Heilman and Patton are unlikely to be on the playoff roster at the same time, much less in any kind of important role in the pen.

I understand that. My point is being missed again. I'm just saying that it would be nice to have pitchers who are good enough to use in clutch situations, whether it's the regular season or the WS. We have guys down there just to fill out the roster that only get used in blowouts... and I think we could use another reliable option down there to solidify things.

 

And I know nobody is really defending Patton here, but I think it's ridiculous that we have someone on our roster just because we can't send him down. If the guy isn't ready, let him go. It's not like he's gonna be the next Cy Young...

 

Most teams have a reliever or two that aren't completely trustworthy. I'd rather let Patton go back to the Rockies as well, but he's not going to be the difference between making the playoffs/winning the World Series and not making the postseason. Heilman can be a solid reliever and is quite suited to his sixth reliever out of the pen role.

 

There really aren't that many bullpens that have very good to great pitchers as their sixth reliever. As long as our top five are good (which it's appearing more and more that they are), we have plenty of depth for most occasions.

Yeah, I feel you. You're correct.

 

I would just love to see Gregg at least moved into a 7th inning role. I think if we could pick up a stud reliever (either an 8th or 9th inning guy) to pair with Marmol at the end, we would have a good pen. Since Patton is used so sparsely, he hasn't been that big of a problem, but he's still using a roster spot :)

[dew1679666265]

Yeah, I feel you. You're correct.

 

I would just love to see Gregg at least moved into a 7th inning role. I think if we could pick up a stud reliever (either an 8th or 9th inning guy) to pair with Marmol at the end, we would have a good pen. Since Patton is used so sparsely, he hasn't been that big of a problem, but he's still using a roster spot :)

 

The only reason I would prefer Patton going back to the Rockies is because he's taking up a roster spot that could/should be used for a bat. But, I do like his potential, so I won't complain too much if he ends up being a cheap, productive reliever after this year.

 

I wouldn't go after a big-time reliever at this point, though. If we have the prospects to get one, it'd wipe out our minor league system too much for less than a major need. If we make a pre-deadline deal, I'd prefer it to be for offense to improve the bench.

[Sammy Sofa]

I would just love to see Gregg at least moved into a 7th inning role. I think if we could pick up a stud reliever (either an 8th or 9th inning guy) to pair with Marmol at the end, we would have a good pen.

 

Guzman has the makings to be that "stud reliever," and Ascanio has shown he could be adapting well to the bullpen roll. Those two and Marmol plus Gregg and Heilmann and then whoever is a very solid pen.

[dew1679666265]

I would just love to see Gregg at least moved into a 7th inning role. I think if we could pick up a stud reliever (either an 8th or 9th inning guy) to pair with Marmol at the end, we would have a good pen.

 

Guzman has the makings to be that "stud reliever," and Ascanio has shown he could be adapting well to the bullpen roll. Those two and Marmol plus Gregg and Heilmann and then whoever is a very solid pen.

 

As an aside, that series of trades that turned Jacque Jones into Jose Ascanio are starting to look very good.

[Old Style]

Our 4-man playoff rotation is likely to be Z, Harden, Lilly, Dempster.

What about Jake Peavy and Pedro Martinez?

[dew1679666265]

Our 4-man playoff rotation is likely to be Z, Harden, Lilly, Dempster.

What about Jake Peavy and Pedro Martinez?

 

Closer and set up man. I didn't mention that those four I listed won't give up a run in the second half of the season, thus cementing themselves as playoff starters? :D

[Cubbie Swagger]

I would just love to see Gregg at least moved into a 7th inning role. I think if we could pick up a stud reliever (either an 8th or 9th inning guy) to pair with Marmol at the end, we would have a good pen.

 

Guzman has the makings to be that "stud reliever," and Ascanio has shown he could be adapting well to the bullpen roll. Those two and Marmol plus Gregg and Heilmann and then whoever is a very solid pen.

That very well could be... but I don't really see Lou making Guzman the closer or setup man in 2009. Although I wouldn't be against trying him out in such a role.

[Sammy Sofa]

I would just love to see Gregg at least moved into a 7th inning role. I think if we could pick up a stud reliever (either an 8th or 9th inning guy) to pair with Marmol at the end, we would have a good pen.

 

Guzman has the makings to be that "stud reliever," and Ascanio has shown he could be adapting well to the bullpen roll. Those two and Marmol plus Gregg and Heilmann and then whoever is a very solid pen.

That very well could be... but I don't really see Lou making Guzman the closer or setup man in 2009. Although I wouldn't be against trying him out in such a role.

 

The Cubs do not have a pressing need to switch up their closer's spot right now.

[Cubbie Swagger]

I would just love to see Gregg at least moved into a 7th inning role. I think if we could pick up a stud reliever (either an 8th or 9th inning guy) to pair with Marmol at the end, we would have a good pen.

 

Guzman has the makings to be that "stud reliever," and Ascanio has shown he could be adapting well to the bullpen roll. Those two and Marmol plus Gregg and Heilmann and then whoever is a very solid pen.

That very well could be... but I don't really see Lou making Guzman the closer or setup man in 2009. Although I wouldn't be against trying him out in such a role.

 

The Cubs do not have a pressing need to switch up their closer's spot right now.

Well, maybe not right this second, but they did earlier in the year, and they will again very soon. Just because Gregg hasn't imploded lately doesn't mean he's a good closer, IMHO. I'm just not a fan of Kevin Gregg (if you couldn't tell :-)) ) and I don't trust him to close out games that matter.

[dew1679666265]

Well, maybe not right this second, but they did earlier in the year, and they will again very soon. Just because Gregg hasn't imploded lately doesn't mean he's a good closer, IMHO. I'm just not a fan of Kevin Gregg (if you couldn't tell :-)) ) and I don't trust him to close out games that matter.

 

I just don't see where he's on the edge of imploding. He's had 120+ ERA+s the past two seasons. The K:BB ratios leave some to be desired, but his results have been good. I just don't see the likelihood that he does far worse the rest of this year than he did the past two.

[Sammy Sofa]

Well, maybe not right this second, but they did earlier in the year, and they will again very soon. Just because Gregg hasn't imploded lately doesn't mean he's a good closer, IMHO. I'm just not a fan of Kevin Gregg (if you couldn't tell :-)) ) and I don't trust him to close out games that matter.

 

I just don't see where he's on the edge of imploding. He's had 120+ ERA+s the past two seasons. The K:BB ratios leave some to be desired, but his results have been good. I just don't see the likelihood that he does far worse the rest of this year than he did the past two.

 

Exactly. It's a waste of resources to go out there and trade for a "bullpen stud," who you'll have to overpay for, when the pieces seem to be in place in-house.

[Cubbie Swagger]

So... now that Guzman is on the DL... does that change anything? Now we have ANOTHER guy that we can't use in close games (Hart)...

 

Gregg had nine blown saves last year... that's just too much. He has also never really had a good ERA in his career. It's been anywhere from mid-3's to over 5... and that's too much for a closer.

[dew1679666265]

So... now that Guzman is on the DL... does that change anything? Now we have ANOTHER guy that we can't use in close games (Hart)...

 

If Guzman is just out for two weeks and no more, I still don't think it's worth the prospects it'd likely cost. If he's out longer than that (like most of the season), then maybe.

 

Gregg had nine blown saves last year... that's just too much. He has also never really had a good ERA in his career. It's been anywhere from mid-3's to over 5... and that's too much for a closer.

 

How do you feel about Wood as a closer? Kerry, after all, has one less blown save (10) since last season than Gregg has in the same time span (11).

 

Also, in the two seasons that his ERA was higher than mid-3s (2005 and 2006) he started two and three games each season. If you eliminate the starts and calculate only the relief appearance ERAs, he had a 4.42 and 3.48 ERA. Not stellar, but for a guy bouncing between the bullpen and rotation, it's not bad.

 

That does give him three straight seasons of relief ERAs in the mid-3s. Rod Beck did that in the middle of his career and Robb Nen even had two out of three seasons with a 3+ ERA. If you want much better than that, you're going to have to be ready to part ways with Jay Jackson/Josh Vitters/Sean Marshall/someone else important and/or pay upwards of $10 million dollars. I'll keep that group of prospects, spend the money elsewhere and keep a closer with a 120 or better ERA+ the past two years.