Sammy to formally retire soon

[Sammy Sofa]

Furthermore, during the years of Sosa's alleged use steriods were not illegal in the sport of baseball.

I swear if I hear this one more time...

 

On June 7, 1991, commissioner Fay Vincent sent a memo to each team and the players union that stated: "The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids." The seven-page document didn't cover random testing -- that had to be bargained with the union -- but it did outline treatment and penalties.

 

This should be copy-pasted into every steroids thread in the original post so that stupid sentence can't be typed

 

That memo was never enforced by anyone within MLB on any level. It's a moot point. It might as well have been a memo about lunch that day.

[A-Cal]

so, which is it class?

[kjfoster 1553]

Weren't steroids illegal in the U.S. in the early 90s?

 

If so, why would MLB have to have a rule in place prohibiting the use of an illegal drug? It seems to me it would be like my boss making a rule that I cannot kill my co-workers...

[A-Cal]

Furthermore, during the years of Sosa's alleged use steriods were not illegal in the sport of baseball.

I swear if I hear this one more time...

 

On June 7, 1991, commissioner Fay Vincent sent a memo to each team and the players union that stated: "The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids." The seven-page document didn't cover random testing -- that had to be bargained with the union -- but it did outline treatment and penalties.

 

This should be copy-pasted into every steroids thread in the original post so that stupid sentence can't be typed

 

That memo was never enforced by anyone within MLB on any level. It's a moot point. It might as well have been a memo about lunch that day.

 

coming from the then commissioner makes it very much not a moot point in regards to its relevance

[A-Cal]

Weren't steroids illegal in the U.S. in the early 90s?

 

If so, why would MLB have to have a rule in place prohibiting the use of an illegal drug? It seems to me it would be like my boss making a rule that I cannot kill my co-workers...

 

because places of employment do it all the time?

[NeifiIsMyHomeBoy]

That memo was never enforced by anyone within MLB on any level. It's a moot point. It might as well have been a memo about lunch that day.

 

Couldn't agree more. Without enforcement a rule or law simply does not exist.

[kjfoster 1553]

Weren't steroids illegal in the U.S. in the early 90s?

 

If so, why would MLB have to have a rule in place prohibiting the use of an illegal drug? It seems to me it would be like my boss making a rule that I cannot kill my co-workers...

 

because places of employment do it all the time?

 

I guess my point was more along the lines of contradicting "they weren't illegal" when really, they were.

[Banedon]

Weren't steroids illegal in the U.S. in the early 90s?

 

If so, why would MLB have to have a rule in place prohibiting the use of an illegal drug? It seems to me it would be like my boss making a rule that I cannot kill my co-workers...

 

because places of employment do it all the time?

 

My place of employment has no specific murder guidelines.

[A-Cal]

Weren't steroids illegal in the U.S. in the early 90s?

 

If so, why would MLB have to have a rule in place prohibiting the use of an illegal drug? It seems to me it would be like my boss making a rule that I cannot kill my co-workers...

 

because places of employment do it all the time?

 

My place of employment has no specific murder guidelines.

 

uh huh, as i would expect it wouldn't

[kjfoster 1553]

Weren't steroids illegal in the U.S. in the early 90s?

 

If so, why would MLB have to have a rule in place prohibiting the use of an illegal drug? It seems to me it would be like my boss making a rule that I cannot kill my co-workers...

 

because places of employment do it all the time?

 

My place of employment has no specific murder guidelines.

 

It's in the fine print. Trust me.

[hossdriver]

Weren't steroids illegal in the U.S. in the early 90s?

 

If so, why would MLB have to have a rule in place prohibiting the use of an illegal drug? It seems to me it would be like my boss making a rule that I cannot kill my co-workers...

 

 

Steroids are NOT ILLEGAL in MOST of the Latin American countries. Pot is not illegal in Amsterdam. However, if you come back from a vacation of 'baking' and pop a whizz test, you employer has the right to FIRE YOU, regardless of whether or notis was legal when you used

 

You must make rules within your private organization in order to keep order, integrity and sanity.

[Banedon]

Weren't steroids illegal in the U.S. in the early 90s?

 

If so, why would MLB have to have a rule in place prohibiting the use of an illegal drug? It seems to me it would be like my boss making a rule that I cannot kill my co-workers...

 

because places of employment do it all the time?

 

My place of employment has no specific murder guidelines.

 

uh huh, as i would expect it wouldn't

 

Betcha I'd still get fired for it. (Though admittedly, it'd probably be the least of my concerns.)

[Sammy Sofa]

Furthermore, during the years of Sosa's alleged use steriods were not illegal in the sport of baseball.

I swear if I hear this one more time...

 

On June 7, 1991, commissioner Fay Vincent sent a memo to each team and the players union that stated: "The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids." The seven-page document didn't cover random testing -- that had to be bargained with the union -- but it did outline treatment and penalties.

 

This should be copy-pasted into every steroids thread in the original post so that stupid sentence can't be typed

 

That memo was never enforced by anyone within MLB on any level. It's a moot point. It might as well have been a memo about lunch that day.

 

coming from the then commissioner makes it very much not a moot point in regards to its relevance

 

Except no commissioner actually enforced it. It was meaningless memo.

[bcl412]

I'll care about steroids in baseball when people who use steroids in other sports are villianized like they are in baseball. Come to think of it, no I won't.

[kjfoster 1553]

Weren't steroids illegal in the U.S. in the early 90s?

 

If so, why would MLB have to have a rule in place prohibiting the use of an illegal drug? It seems to me it would be like my boss making a rule that I cannot kill my co-workers...

 

 

Steroids are NOT ILLEGAL in MOST of the Latin American countries. Pot is not illegal in Amsterdam.

 

And if you bring either of those things back from those two places... you are breaking the law.

 

I completely see what you are saying, though, and am not disagreeing.

[A-Cal]

Weren't steroids illegal in the U.S. in the early 90s?

 

If so, why would MLB have to have a rule in place prohibiting the use of an illegal drug? It seems to me it would be like my boss making a rule that I cannot kill my co-workers...

 

because places of employment do it all the time?

 

My place of employment has no specific murder guidelines.

 

uh huh, as i would expect it wouldn't

 

Betcha I'd still get fired for it. (Though admittedly, it'd probably be the least of my concerns.)

 

i need to eat because i am not following you at all

[snoodmonger]

I don't see how someone can't think that greenies aren't an aid. The baseball season is a long toil. Amphetamines would allow someone an edge when they are tired and worn out at the end of a long season, or just the end of a long road trip. While they may not add strength like steroids or hgh will, they would help with concentration which in many ways may be of more an aid to a hitter than brute strength alone.

 

But since you think steroids are more of an aid, what studies do you point to for that? Is it based in empirical fact or just your gut opinion? Because frankly, I might buy an argument based on fact, but if it's just your gut feeling, I don't think making HOF decisions based on your gut is a very credible argument.

 

Now if you took a stronger stance on all cheating...ie...felt that any HOF who used greenies should be excluded as well as tossing out pitchers like Gaylord Perry, then you would be credible. Right now, I've seen a lot of grasping of straws and nothing more.

 

right vance, i forgot that if someone doesn't think the way you do, they are wrong

 

No, my point is that it's quiet intellectually dishonest to say that one form of cheating should deny someone of the highest honor and that another form of cheating should be overlooked without some empirical reason for doing so.

 

In a previous post, you admitted to taking greenies. That makes me wonder if you don't vilify those because you have committed the same act, while you condemn ones who have taken another form of cheating. Both steroids and amphetamines can increase performance. Both also can cause health problems. It's not that you're wrong, it's that you are inconsistent. You're trying to argue degrees because it's the only way to support your position. The problem is that there is no evidence other than speculation to support your claim.

 

So, you're welcome to your opinion. If you like having uninformed, ridiculous opinions, be my guest. I'll continue to call them out for being uninformed and ridiculous, but you are welcome to have them.

 

i enjoy your thoughts, can i come to your class on how to think and respond appropriately?

 

 

The last desperate tactic of someone getting abused in a debate. Well played.

[NeifiIsMyHomeBoy]

coming from the then commissioner makes it very much not a moot point in regards to its relevance

 

If there is no punishment for the action, and no way of detecting use, then the memo may as well be printed on toilet paper. It's useless.

[A-Cal]

Furthermore, during the years of Sosa's alleged use steriods were not illegal in the sport of baseball.

I swear if I hear this one more time...

 

On June 7, 1991, commissioner Fay Vincent sent a memo to each team and the players union that stated: "The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids." The seven-page document didn't cover random testing -- that had to be bargained with the union -- but it did outline treatment and penalties.

 

This should be copy-pasted into every steroids thread in the original post so that stupid sentence can't be typed

 

That memo was never enforced by anyone within MLB on any level. It's a moot point. It might as well have been a memo about lunch that day.

 

coming from the then commissioner makes it very much not a moot point in regards to its relevance

 

Except no commissioner actually enforced it. It was meaningless memo.

 

hold the phone, it is a seven page documento not a memo

 

more important

[A-Cal]

I don't see how someone can't think that greenies aren't an aid. The baseball season is a long toil. Amphetamines would allow someone an edge when they are tired and worn out at the end of a long season, or just the end of a long road trip. While they may not add strength like steroids or hgh will, they would help with concentration which in many ways may be of more an aid to a hitter than brute strength alone.

 

But since you think steroids are more of an aid, what studies do you point to for that? Is it based in empirical fact or just your gut opinion? Because frankly, I might buy an argument based on fact, but if it's just your gut feeling, I don't think making HOF decisions based on your gut is a very credible argument.

 

Now if you took a stronger stance on all cheating...ie...felt that any HOF who used greenies should be excluded as well as tossing out pitchers like Gaylord Perry, then you would be credible. Right now, I've seen a lot of grasping of straws and nothing more.

 

right vance, i forgot that if someone doesn't think the way you do, they are wrong

 

No, my point is that it's quiet intellectually dishonest to say that one form of cheating should deny someone of the highest honor and that another form of cheating should be overlooked without some empirical reason for doing so.

 

In a previous post, you admitted to taking greenies. That makes me wonder if you don't vilify those because you have committed the same act, while you condemn ones who have taken another form of cheating. Both steroids and amphetamines can increase performance. Both also can cause health problems. It's not that you're wrong, it's that you are inconsistent. You're trying to argue degrees because it's the only way to support your position. The problem is that there is no evidence other than speculation to support your claim.

 

So, you're welcome to your opinion. If you like having uninformed, ridiculous opinions, be my guest. I'll continue to call them out for being uninformed and ridiculous, but you are welcome to have them.

 

i enjoy your thoughts, can i come to your class on how to think and respond appropriately?

 

 

The last desperate tactic of someone getting abused in a debate. Well played.

 

awww shucks...you are so kind

[hossdriver]

Weren't steroids illegal in the U.S. in the early 90s?

 

If so, why would MLB have to have a rule in place prohibiting the use of an illegal drug? It seems to me it would be like my boss making a rule that I cannot kill my co-workers...

 

 

Steroids are NOT ILLEGAL in MOST of the Latin American countries. Pot is not illegal in Amsterdam.

 

And if you bring either of those things back from those two places... you are breaking the law.

 

I completely see what you are saying, though, and am not disagreeing.

 

 

I was trying to tie both points together. You could, as a baseball player travel to the Dominican, do your offseason Sammy Sosa 'workout' and come back to the states. You haven't broken ANY American laws.

 

However, in the eyes of the USOC, the NBA, the NHL, the NFL, and now MLB, you have cheated and broken the rules. THAT is why MLB MUST put rules in place. Professional athletes care squat about morals when big contracts are involved. Something enforceable has to be in place.

[Sammy Sofa]

hold the phone, it is a seven page documento not a memo

 

more important

 

You do realize the term "memo" has nothing to do with the number of pages, right?

 

And your argument as to its validity is how long it is?

 

Wow.

[Sammy Sofa]

Weren't steroids illegal in the U.S. in the early 90s?

 

If so, why would MLB have to have a rule in place prohibiting the use of an illegal drug? It seems to me it would be like my boss making a rule that I cannot kill my co-workers...

 

 

Steroids are NOT ILLEGAL in MOST of the Latin American countries. Pot is not illegal in Amsterdam.

 

And if you bring either of those things back from those two places... you are breaking the law.

 

I completely see what you are saying, though, and am not disagreeing.

 

 

I was trying to tie both points together. You could, as a baseball player travel to the Dominican, do your offseason Sammy Sosa 'workout' and come back to the states. You haven't broken ANY American laws.

 

However, in the eyes of the USOC, the NBA, the NHL, the NFL, and now MLB, you have cheated and broken the rules. THAT is why MLB MUST put rules in place. Professional athletes care squat about morals when big contracts are involved. Something enforceable has to be in place.

 

Fine, but then retroactively going after players who did this BEFORE the new rules are in place is just a redundant witch hunt.

[kjfoster 1553]

Weren't steroids illegal in the U.S. in the early 90s?

 

If so, why would MLB have to have a rule in place prohibiting the use of an illegal drug? It seems to me it would be like my boss making a rule that I cannot kill my co-workers...

 

 

Steroids are NOT ILLEGAL in MOST of the Latin American countries. Pot is not illegal in Amsterdam.

 

And if you bring either of those things back from those two places... you are breaking the law.

 

I completely see what you are saying, though, and am not disagreeing.

 

 

I was trying to tie both points together. You could, as a baseball player travel to the Dominican, do your offseason Sammy Sosa 'workout' and come back to the states. You haven't broken ANY American laws.

 

However, in the eyes of the USOC, the NBA, the NHL, the NFL, and now MLB, you have cheated and broken the rules. THAT is why MLB MUST put rules in place. Professional athletes care squat about morals when big contracts are involved. Something enforceable has to be in place.

 

Ok, I follow better now.

 

btw, love the sig. :lol:

[hossdriver]

Weren't steroids illegal in the U.S. in the early 90s?

 

If so, why would MLB have to have a rule in place prohibiting the use of an illegal drug? It seems to me it would be like my boss making a rule that I cannot kill my co-workers...

 

 

Steroids are NOT ILLEGAL in MOST of the Latin American countries. Pot is not illegal in Amsterdam.

 

And if you bring either of those things back from those two places... you are breaking the law.

 

I completely see what you are saying, though, and am not disagreeing.

 

 

I was trying to tie both points together. You could, as a baseball player travel to the Dominican, do your offseason Sammy Sosa 'workout' and come back to the states. You haven't broken ANY American laws.

 

However, in the eyes of the USOC, the NBA, the NHL, the NFL, and now MLB, you have cheated and broken the rules. THAT is why MLB MUST put rules in place. Professional athletes care squat about morals when big contracts are involved. Something enforceable has to be in place.

 

Ok, I follow better now.

 

btw, love the sig. :lol:

 

 

I concur... I think it is moot to come down hard on all of these guys. You have to go more toward character than anything else judging on HOF merit. A guy like Bonds, however great he was on the field, is a fink off of it. A guy like Sosa might get a little more benefit of the doubt because he was good in the public eye, bettered the game in 1998, and has never been 'caught'. Same with McGwire.

 

Lets say for argument, if Andy Pettite or Jason Giambi finish their careers with no-brainer HOF numbers... Do you vote them in based on taking the responsibility and apologizing? Alex Rodriguez? Manny Ramirez?

 

What say you about two of the GREATEST of our generation, Bonds and Clemens? They are LOCKS numbers wise, but have cheated, lied, and made a mockery of the game and spit in the face of clear cut evidence with vehement denials... These guys were probably HOFers without PEDs but the fact remains that they went after storied records and all-time numbers and laughed at us the entire way.

 

I liken this to Pete Rose, who I backed for a LONG time. He lied to me. He's an absolute joke now and I couldn't care less if he gets inducted now. No shame. No humility. Just a liar trying to make a quick buck.