Zambrano WILL NOT pitch in the WBC

[Schwarber Fan]

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090213&content_id=3825656&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

 

Good news

[Yeti]

not to nitpick, but hasnt this been discussed?

[Schwarber Fan]

I know there's been separate WBC threads for Dempster, Harden, Ramirez, and Fukudome, and even a general one, but I do not believe there was an announcement about Z until today. I could be wrong.

[BigbadB]

I read something about it here yesterday, but don't remember where it was. I think what I read yesterday said something like:

 

Z decided not to pitch in the WBC this year because he didn't like how he pitched in the regular season after appearing in the WBC the last time.

 

I'd say let the thread stand for now.

[Mephistopheles]

i still cant believe people think the wbc hurts pitchers. it's one of the dumber consensus thoughts out there.

[Yeti]

yeah, after a little digging, it was briefly mentioned in the "cubs in the WBC" thread. for some reason i thought the discussion was more in depth, my bad.

[Schwarber Fan]

yeah, after a little digging, it was briefly mentioned in the "cubs in the WBC" thread. for some reason i thought the discussion was more in depth, my bad.

 

no problem

 

i still cant believe people think the wbc hurts pitchers. it's one of the dumber consensus thoughts out there.

 

Better safe than sorry, IMO.

[Yeti]

i still cant believe people think the wbc hurts pitchers. it's one of the dumber consensus thoughts out there.

if one of our pitchers is hurt during ST, i'd rather have it happen in cubs camp then in the WBC. mostly so we dont have to wade through the hundreds of posts crying about how the WBC screwed us

[Mephistopheles]

if hes going to get hurt hes going to get hurt. if anything pitching in the wbc would be expected to help. of course people ignore logic.

[imb]

i dont want zambrano to not pitch in the wbc because it will keep him from being hurt, i want our pitchers to skip it so they can be on a proper pitching program with the cubs' instructors (which now that i think of it may not be a good idea)

[Mephistopheles]

i dont want zambrano to not pitch in the wbc because it will keep him from being hurt, i want our pitchers to skip it so they can be on a proper pitching program with the cubs' instructors (which now that i think of it may not be a good idea)

 

10.0

[BigbadB]

if hes going to get hurt hes going to get hurt. if anything pitching in the wbc would be expected to help. of course people ignore logic.

 

I can understand why the clubs who are paying them the big bucks would be upset if players played in the WBC. It's their dime someone else is toying with.

[Mephistopheles]

I can understand why they'd be worried, but just because they're worried it doesn't mean that there an actuall increased likelihood of an injury or lackluster performance later in the season. as i said before, the WBC probably helps more than anything.

[BigbadB]

I can understand why they'd be worried, but just because they're worried it doesn't mean that there an actuall increased likelihood of an injury or lackluster performance later in the season. as i said before, the WBC probably helps more than anything.

 

It probably has a lot to do with the travel and training regimine's that don't follow the ballclubs policies. Besides the risk of getting injured, which you are probably right that if they get injured there, it was bound to happen with their own club, but that's for your basic baseball injury. It does not necessarily follow the same line of a freak injury, where someone rips one back up the middle off of the pitcher's forehead. Would someone hit one off the pitcher's forehead? Who knows. Could someone hit one off the pitcher's forehead? Sure. How often does it happen? Not that much. But, the risk of something like that is there because they are in that environment, just not with the club that's paying the big contract.

[SweetZombieJesus]

He will still get hurt. Probably playing first base for venezuela

[Mephistopheles]

I can understand why they'd be worried, but just because they're worried it doesn't mean that there an actuall increased likelihood of an injury or lackluster performance later in the season. as i said before, the WBC probably helps more than anything.

 

It probably has a lot to do with the travel and training regimine's that don't follow the ballclubs policies. Besides the risk of getting injured, which you are probably right that if they get injured there, it was bound to happen with their own club, but that's for your basic baseball injury. It does not necessarily follow the same line of a freak injury, where someone rips one back up the middle off of the pitcher's forehead. Would someone hit one off the pitcher's forehead? Who knows. Could someone hit one off the pitcher's forehead? Sure. How often does it happen? Not that much. But, the risk of something like that is there because they are in that environment, just not with the club that's paying the big contract.

 

the flipside is that some pitchers would "avoid" the chance of getting nailed in the head on a combacker in other spring training games. that chance is the same. the fact youre in the WBC doesnt make the likelihood of getting billy wagner'd more likely than a game in Arizona.

[17 Seconds]

if hes going to get hurt hes going to get hurt. if anything pitching in the wbc would be expected to help. of course people ignore logic.

 

So you don't think a pitcher is more likely to wear down if he throws more innings?

[Mephistopheles]

if hes going to get hurt hes going to get hurt. if anything pitching in the wbc would be expected to help. of course people ignore logic.

 

So you don't think a pitcher is more likely to wear down if he throws more innings?

 

There are two arguments that I can use to refute a post like this. Only one of them has to be "right" for your point to be wrong, however, both are right so I'm covered.

 

1. No a pitcher isn't more likely to wear down if he throws more innings spaced out over time. If the WBC's in January, that's another thing. It's not.

 

2. The pitchers really aren't throwing more innings. They would have pitched those innings somewhere, most in a spring training game. If he were to throw two or three fewer he would have made those up in a bullpen session in Spring Training and two or three more innings and March doesn't mean jack.

[Outshined_One]

2. The pitchers really aren't throwing more innings. They would have pitched those innings somewhere, most in a spring training game. If he were to throw two or three fewer he would have made those up in a bullpen session in Spring Training and two or three more innings and March doesn't mean jack.

 

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on this.

 

However, if Z thinks this will somehow help him be more prepared for the season, more power to him.

[17 Seconds]

if hes going to get hurt hes going to get hurt. if anything pitching in the wbc would be expected to help. of course people ignore logic.

 

So you don't think a pitcher is more likely to wear down if he throws more innings?

 

1. No a pitcher isn't more likely to wear down if he throws more innings spaced out over time. If the WBC's in January, that's another thing. It's not.

 

And this is based on what? Do you have any proof? You don't think pitchers ever start to tire and lose a little bit of stuff towards the end of a long season? How can you act so sure that this doesn't happen?

 

2. The pitchers really aren't throwing more innings. They would have pitched those innings somewhere, most in a spring training game. If he were to throw two or three fewer he would have made those up in a bullpen session in Spring Training and two or three more innings and March doesn't mean jack

 

There's a difference between pitching in a game where you're actually trying to win and compete and a game where you're just trying to get work in.

[Mephistopheles]

And this is based on what? Do you have any proof? You don't think pitchers ever start to tire and lose a little bit of stuff towards the end of a long season? How can you act so sure that this doesn't happen?

 

There's no proof that it does happen. I don't need any proof because the argument I am countering has no proof.

 

There's a difference between pitching in a game where you're actually trying to win and compete and a game where you're just trying to get work in.

 

Not really, no.

[17 Seconds]

And this is based on what? Do you have any proof? You don't think pitchers ever start to tire and lose a little bit of stuff towards the end of a long season? How can you act so sure that this doesn't happen?

 

There's no proof that it does happen. I don't need any proof because the argument I am countering has no proof.

 

 

Actually, you do, since you're the one that called the other opinion "dumb". That's the difference. I never said you're for sure wrong and acted like my opinion was 100% fact. You did. If you're going to call people dumb you should probably have a better arugment than "I don't have proof but I think it's true so it is".

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Innings thrown in the WBC are simply not the same as bullpen sessions or even spring training games. Going straight to high level competition after the offseason when you're used to 6 weeks of training and exhibitions is going to make a difference for some.

[Mephistopheles]

If you're going to call people dumb you should probably have a better arugment than "I don't have proof but I think it's true so it is".

 

1. I didn't call anyone dumb.

2. It's common sense.

 

Innings thrown in the WBC are simply not the same as bullpen sessions or even spring training games. Going straight to high level competition after the off season when you're used to 6 weeks of training and exhibitions is going to make a difference for some.

 

From a mental stand point sure, whatever. From an actual stress on the arm point of view there's little, if any, difference. You're throwing the same pitches. How much "effort" you put into each pitch doesn't matter. Injuries, structurally, are caused by two things. For the elbow, it's the point where your arm and elbow is extended 180 degrees as the ball is released. The amount of torque on the elbow is what causes injuries, as well as the rotational angle that your forearm is in (ie slider or fastball). Throwing a ball 92 MPH instead of 90 MPH because you're in the WBC isn't going to add a significant amount of torque. 90% of injuries involving the elbow are injuries to your ligaments. Ligament injuries aren't freak accidents. They don't just happen. They happen as the stress of the pitchers weaken the ligaments over time. The simple fact is: ligament injuries from pitching are ticking time bombs. If it's going to happen, it's going to happen. Whether you're pitching in the WBC or not won't impact that.

 

Shoulder injuries are a little different, but the principles remain the same. The labrum is generally NOT caused by the actual physical fact of motioning your arm forward. It's generally caused by pinching when you pull your arm back, mentally putting anything extra into throwing faster isn't going to cause your labrum to sustain any more damage. Rotator cuff injuries aren't generally caused by the physical fact of motioning your arm forward, but the deceleration of the rotation of upper arm after the ball is released. Again, throwing the ball 92 MPH instead of 90 MPH isn't going to make much a difference, structurally speaking on the rotator cuff muscles and tendons. Let's also note that, when throwing a baseball, the arm itself does not have a rotational velocity near the the speed of the ball after release, meaning each difference of 1 or 2 MPH on actual speed is going to much much smaller with respect to the shoulder.

 

So really, as far as injuries are concerned, pitching in the WBC is the same as pitching the spring training, even if mentally you try harder.

[weis21]

So if Zambrano threw as hard as he could (for conceivably as many pitches as it would take for his national team) it would be no different than if he was simply stretching out in spring training? That's a novel idea to say the least. I'm not saying that he would necessarily hurt himself doing it, or that even it would be a huge risk, but to say that it is the same thing as "playing it safe" with spring training is a bit of a reach in my opinion.

 

And what is this no difference between 90 or 92? Zambrano doesn't max out at 92.