Being creative with the starting rotation

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I saw a link from a Mets blog about how they might be set up well for a 3-3 rotation(which is outlined in Tango's book I believe), and it got me thinking that the Cubs could possibly benefit from this as well. Here's all our starters and mini-starters:

 

Zambrano

Lilly

Dempster

Hill

Marquis

Gallagher

Marshall

Lieber

 

The concept of the 3-3 rotation is that you have 3 starters who go on regular rest, and 3 starters that combine to pitch the other two starts. For example, let's make Z, Lilly, and Hill, our best 3 starters when Hill returns, our regular rest guys. They occupy the 1st, 2nd, and 4th spots in the rotation. Let's make Dempster, Marshall, and Gallagher the other 3(this leaves no roster space for Lieber or Marquis, a practical impossibility, but let's assume Marquis tore something and Lieber gets DFA'ed and sent to Iowa as a reserve mini-starter for the sake of the example). So you have Z pitch, then Lilly, then Dempster, Marshall, and Gallagher each throw around 30-50 pitches, or in other words, don't let them bat(this has a side benefit of improving the offense). Zambrano would make a useful 1st pinch hitter as to not make the bench too short. I put the 3 mini-starters in that order because it allows for contrasting styles every time there's a change. Dempster's sinker to Marshall's LH hook to Gallagher's sinker. The next game Hill starts, then the following game the 3 mini-starters go again, with an emphasis on getting work for the one or two that got less work in the first go round. Then it's back to Z and the process repeats itself.

 

The benefits to such a plan? Guys like Gallagher, Marshall, and Dempster have IP thresholds they haven't passed ever, or without injury. This keeps them fresh. The three are more likely to be effective, as most pitchers run into problems the 2nd and 3rd time through the order. It would also be more difficult for opposing lineups to be stacked against a starter(especially important for Dempster and Gallagher, to a lesser extent Marshall). The bullpen wouldn't be needed for much on 2 of 5 games, allowing a built-in rest to protect against over use.

 

On the downside? It makes it more difficult for young pitchers(like Gallagher or Marshall) to gain the endurance/experience necessary to step up into that role of a "full time starter". Also, the long man role that Lieber currently occupies would be eliminated. It wouldn't matter for 40% of the games, but it puts a little more strain on the pen when one of your top 3 starters bombs a start(since they're your top 3, that hopefully doesn't happen all that often).

 

Now obviously, Lou or Hendry isn't going to be receptive to something like this, so it's more of a thought exercise than anything, but I was curious what people thought about an arrangement like this. I haven't read Tango's book that outlines this plan, anyone else who has have something to add about it that I might've missed?

[CuseCubFan69]

Is it possible they are kind of doing this by sending guys up and down from Iowa? Granted, they are not getting the rest you spoke of but it does keep them in the rotation more than going with a straight 5.

 

Interesting idea since they seem intent on keeping 12 pitchers.

[javy knows my name]

This is a cool idea that I wouldn't do because I believe Marshall and Gallagher can stick in a traditional 5-man major league rotation. Given that the coaches don't seem to agree with me, I think this is the next-best way to maximize each one's contribution to the team, despite a an inevitable decline in trade value for each "mini-starter"

[soapy]

i think its very intriguing since (as you pointed out) Marshall, Dempster and Gallagher are all three guys who could consievably benefit a great deal from a lighter work load in the short term. So your "starters" now become:

 

Zambrano

Lilly

Hill

Dempster

Marshall

Gallagher

 

That's six pitchers and still leaves for six other relievers which I think is plenty with this type of set-up becuase the bullpen isn't likely to be needed much if at all the day that the short-starters go. Let's say you have this in the bullpen:

 

Wood

Marmol

Howry

Eyre

Cotts

Wuertz

 

I think that's enough if you consider (again) that they can probably be rested the day that Dempster/Marshall/Gallagher pitch, save for may one inning or so.

 

My initial thought is it sounds like a cool concept, though as you said it would never happen.

[CuseCubFan69]

i think its very intriguing since (as you pointed out) Marshall, Dempster and Gallagher are all three guys who could consievably benefit a great deal from a lighter work load in the short term. So your "starters" now become:

 

Zambrano

Lilly

Hill

Dempster

Marshall

Gallagher

 

That's six pitchers and still leaves for six other relievers which I think is plenty with this type of set-up becuase the bullpen isn't likely to be needed much if at all the day that the short-starters go. Let's say you have this in the bullpen:

 

Wood

Marmol

Howry

Eyre

Cotts

Wuertz

 

I think that's enough if you consider (again) that they can probably be rested the day that Dempster/Marshall/Gallagher pitch, save for may one inning or so.

 

My initial thought is it sounds like a cool concept, though as you said it would never happen.

 

I admit I do like Lieber as the long man, especially if a lefty starts the game. With those 6 guys, you don't have a long guy unless you do some interesting moves.

[soapy]

i think its very intriguing since (as you pointed out) Marshall, Dempster and Gallagher are all three guys who could consievably benefit a great deal from a lighter work load in the short term. So your "starters" now become:

 

Zambrano

Lilly

Hill

Dempster

Marshall

Gallagher

 

That's six pitchers and still leaves for six other relievers which I think is plenty with this type of set-up becuase the bullpen isn't likely to be needed much if at all the day that the short-starters go. Let's say you have this in the bullpen:

 

Wood

Marmol

Howry

Eyre

Cotts

Wuertz

 

I think that's enough if you consider (again) that they can probably be rested the day that Dempster/Marshall/Gallagher pitch, save for may one inning or so.

 

My initial thought is it sounds like a cool concept, though as you said it would never happen.

 

I admit I do like Lieber as the long man, especially if a lefty starts the game. With those 6 guys, you don't have a long guy unless you do some interesting moves.

 

if you feel like you need to have a long-man, you could stick Lieber in Cotts' spot. i don't think they need two lefties anyway.

[CuseCubFan69]

i think its very intriguing since (as you pointed out) Marshall, Dempster and Gallagher are all three guys who could consievably benefit a great deal from a lighter work load in the short term. So your "starters" now become:

 

Zambrano

Lilly

Hill

Dempster

Marshall

Gallagher

 

That's six pitchers and still leaves for six other relievers which I think is plenty with this type of set-up becuase the bullpen isn't likely to be needed much if at all the day that the short-starters go. Let's say you have this in the bullpen:

 

Wood

Marmol

Howry

Eyre

Cotts

Wuertz

 

I think that's enough if you consider (again) that they can probably be rested the day that Dempster/Marshall/Gallagher pitch, save for may one inning or so.

 

My initial thought is it sounds like a cool concept, though as you said it would never happen.

 

I admit I do like Lieber as the long man, especially if a lefty starts the game. With those 6 guys, you don't have a long guy unless you do some interesting moves.

 

if you feel like you need to have a long-man, you could stick Lieber in Cotts' spot. i don't think they need two lefties anyway.

 

That might be two things Lou and Hendry might not like then! I suppose Cotts could be that guy (long relief) as well.

[soapy]

 

if you feel like you need to have a long-man, you could stick Lieber in Cotts' spot. i don't think they need two lefties anyway.

 

That might be two things Lou and Hendry might not like then! I suppose Cotts could be that guy (long relief) as well.

 

even if it meant Lieber was there in place of Wuertz, it would still be doable. i don't think TT or anyone is under the delusion that this is going to happen, it's just an interesting concept.

[CuseCubFan69]

 

if you feel like you need to have a long-man, you could stick Lieber in Cotts' spot. i don't think they need two lefties anyway.

 

That might be two things Lou and Hendry might not like then! I suppose Cotts could be that guy (long relief) as well.

 

even if it meant Lieber was there in place of Wuertz, it would still be doable. i don't think TT or anyone is under the delusion that this is going to happen, it's just an interesting concept.

 

It is. Plus, Lou did go by the closer by committee when he was with the Reds so it isn't like he wouldn't think outside the box a little.

[tfarks]

What if the initial starter is performing very well, do you leave him in? Lets say Gallagher pitches 3 innings of scoreless baseball with 3k's and no BB's - and is taken out for a pinch hitter in a bases loaded situation. Do you risk losing games with too much focus on pitch counts? At what point does one of the mini starters get phased out too often based on reactionary management?

 

Its definitely a cool idea, I don't know how practical the approach is, but it could work given the right management.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

What if the initial starter is performing very well, do you leave him in? Lets say Gallagher pitches 3 innings of scoreless baseball with 3k's and no BB's - and is taken out for a pinch hitter in a bases loaded situation. Do you risk losing games with too much focus on pitch counts? At what point does one of the mini starters get phased out too often based on reactionary management?

 

Its definitely a cool idea, I don't know how practical the approach is, but it could work given the right management.

 

The thing to keep in mind is that when you implement this it's not like each starter could go 100 pitches if they wanted, they'll be throwing fewer pitches less often, like a more important long reliever. In any case, the situation will dictate when the change is made, how well he is pitching, how close he is to tiring, at what point he comes up, and how many runs the offense is scored all play a part in making that decision.

[CubinNY]

What if the initial starter is performing very well, do you leave him in? Lets say Gallagher pitches 3 innings of scoreless baseball with 3k's and no BB's - and is taken out for a pinch hitter in a bases loaded situation. Do you risk losing games with too much focus on pitch counts? At what point does one of the mini starters get phased out too often based on reactionary management?

 

Its definitely a cool idea, I don't know how practical the approach is, but it could work given the right management.

 

The thing to keep in mind is that when you implement this it's not like each starter could go 100 pitches if they wanted, they'll be throwing fewer pitches less often, like a more important long reliever. In any case, the situation will dictate when the change is made, how well he is pitching, how close he is to tiring, at what point he comes up, and how many runs the offense is scored all play a part in making that decision.

I like the idea in principle. I think it might work well to team a young guy with a guy like Maddux or Glavin or Al Leiter who is pitching toward the end of their career. Leiter was very effective for about 4 inning toward the end of his career.

[NCCubFan]

The idea I've mentioned before (and still like) is to have three pitchers rotating among two spots in the rotation. If we assume Gallagher, Marshall, and Dempster as the three, that would mean one time through the rotation Gallagher and Marshall would start, with Dempster available for long relief. The next time Gallagher and Dempster would start with Marshall in long relief, and finally Dempster and Marshall would start with Gallagher in long relief. This would keep their innings down for the year but still allow them to build stamina within games (as well as allow them to pitch long enough to qualify for a win, which is important to the players even if we recognize that wins aren't important).