Official Theriot appreciation thread

[WilcoFan]

All I meant is that no one ever talks about how gritty a black or Latino guy is. Maybe Juan Pierre, but that's about all.

 

Derek Jeter? All the Molina brothers? Torii Hunter?

[CubbieBum]

And a lot of people would be making a really big mistake. RP are extremely important. If your bullpen stinks you will not be in the playoffs. We have a good but not great bullpen and to trade our best guy in that pen (and a lot of other guys who have good trade value) for an above average SS would be a big mistake. Green had an OBP below .300 last year :shock: . Sure he got 27 HR's but a lot of guys who can get away with swinging away every atbat without being benched could get 27 dingers. In the end what he is is a good fielding SS and a frustrating hitter for the team he plays for.

 

Trading Marmol wouldn't make this bullpen stink. The Cubs have the luxury of selling high on a player like Marmol and still having a competitive or better bullpen.

 

Greene's numbers are dragged down by playing half of his season in the cavern that is Petco. Look at his splits. His away OPS was .840 last year. .863 the year before that. Get him out of Petco and into a place like Wrigley and his numbers overall will soar. He's a serious power threat, especially for a SS, and he plays excellent defense at a position where we could use it. Plus, as opposed to Marmol's one inning every other game, he'll play almost every game. If you can use a reliever as a package to get a young, excellent everyday player like Greene, you do it.

 

If it's Marmol for Greene straight up then yes you probably do it but not with all the other guys you listed.

[Sammy Sofa]

If it's Marmol for Greene straight up then yes you probably do it but not with all the other guys you listed.

 

You're not going to get anyone of Greene's level for just Marmol straight up. Again, unless it looks like he can be stretched into a starter, as good as he is, he's still just a reliever. He can help push a deal to completion in abi way, but he's not going to be the main part of the deal. And the others I mentioned? Murton is stuck as a man out of place, yet he's a great trade piece, especially with the Padres, who have shown interest in him. Cedeno would have to go becase the need the SS depth with Greene going, and the Cubs could handle that easily wih Greene coming back in return. I'd trade Marshall or Gallagher as the final part...I could really go either way.

 

Bottom line, you're not going to get a quality and valuable player like Greene for nothing. You're severely overvaluing Marmol.

[TruffleShuffle]

If it's Marmol for Greene straight up then yes you probably do it but not with all the other guys you listed.

 

You're not going to get anyone of Greene's level for just Marmol straight up. Again, unless it looks like he can be stretched into a starter, as good as he is, he's still just a reliever. He can help push a deal to completion in abi way, but he's not going to be the main part of the deal. And the others I mentioned? Murton is stuck as a man out of place, yet he's a great trade piece, especially with the Padres, who have shown interest in him. Cedeno would have to go becase the need the SS depth with Greene going, and the Cubs could handle that easily wih Greene coming back in return. I'd trade Marshall or Gallagher as the final part...I could really go either way.

 

Bottom line, you're not going to get a quality and valuable player like Greene for nothing. You're severely overvaluing Marmol.

 

i suspect a lot of trade partners would severely overvalue marmol, however. but likely not kevin towers, since he's smart.

 

anyway, i would prefer not to trade arguably our best reliever for greene. yes it makes the team a lot better offensively, but i think the cubs would be better-served by trading spare parts (murton, marshall) and prospects (gallagher, and especially colvin since he's gonna suck) than significant contributors to the current team. teams that aspire to win the world series do not trade their best pieces in the bullpen.

[Sammy Sofa]

If it's Marmol for Greene straight up then yes you probably do it but not with all the other guys you listed.

 

You're not going to get anyone of Greene's level for just Marmol straight up. Again, unless it looks like he can be stretched into a starter, as good as he is, he's still just a reliever. He can help push a deal to completion in abi way, but he's not going to be the main part of the deal. And the others I mentioned? Murton is stuck as a man out of place, yet he's a great trade piece, especially with the Padres, who have shown interest in him. Cedeno would have to go becase the need the SS depth with Greene going, and the Cubs could handle that easily wih Greene coming back in return. I'd trade Marshall or Gallagher as the final part...I could really go either way.

 

Bottom line, you're not going to get a quality and valuable player like Greene for nothing. You're severely overvaluing Marmol.

 

i suspect a lot of trade partners would severely overvalue marmol, however. but likely not kevin towers, since he's smart.

 

Even by those that would overvalue him, he's still better served as part of a trade than for anything straight up, short of the rare miracle deal falling right in the Cubs' lap.

 

anyway, i would prefer not to trade arguably our best reliever for greene. yes it makes the team a lot better offensively, but i think the cubs would be better-served by trading spare parts (murton, marshall) and prospects (gallagher, and especially colvin since he's gonna suck) than significant contributors to the current team. teams that aspire to win the world series do not trade their best pieces in the bullpen.

 

"Our best reliever" is still just a reliever. It would be a diferent matter if the Cubs clearly had a crappy bullpen besides Marmol, but they don't. It's much easier to fill a bullpen with passable or better players than it is to seriously upgrade at a position spot...and Marmol has the shine to be a big part of a deal to do so, and the Cubs have the luxury of parting with him. A reliever right now, even one as good as Marmol, IS a spare part, and one that can ad should be traded for maximum value.

 

Not that it matters. Hendry never sells high. He's gonna glom onto Marmol because the fans love him and relegate him to the closer role after Wood breaks down for good this year or the next.

[UBlink]

So what would the ceiling be for a player who over 7 years and 975 AB's at age 29 had amassed a career line of .266/.312/.371/.683?

 

For comparison Neifi's career line is .267/.297/.375/.672 and Macias is .256/.298/.371/.669?

[TruffleShuffle]

"Our best reliever" is still just a reliever. It would be a diferent matter if the Cubs clearly had a crappy bullpen besides Marmol, but they don't. It's much easier to fill a bullpen with passable or better players than it is to seriously upgrade at a position spot...and Marmol has the shine to be a big part of a deal to do so, and the Cubs have the luxury of parting with him. A reliever right now, even one as good as Marmol, IS a spare part, and one that can ad should be traded for maximum value.

 

Not that it matters. Hendry never sells high. He's gonna glom onto Marmol because the fans love him and relegate him to the closer role after Wood breaks down for good this year or the next.

 

yeah but what if/when wood gets hurt? then your bullpen is:

 

howry - reliably good

wuertz - pretty good, but struggled down the stretch and his command can be spotty

eyre - hurt; sucks when he is healthy

pignatiello - unproven; might be useful against LH batters

lieber - who knows? not really a relief pitcher.

hart - looks pretty good so far, but again he is an unknown

petrick/marshall? - who knows

 

take marmol and wood out of the equation, and what is one of this team's big strengths becomes a pretty big question mark. do you feel good with wuertz becoming the primary setup man? eyre/piggy/lieber/hart handling 7th inning duties? i'm not sure that i do.

[Sammy Sofa]

So what would the ceiling be for a player who over 7 years and 975 AB's at age 29 had amassed a career line of .266/.312/.371/.683?

 

For comparison Neifi's career line is .267/.297/.375/.672 and Macias is .256/.298/.371/.669?

 

 

Look at his dramatic and consistent away splits over his career:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=greenkh01&year=00

 

Stop pretending he isn't hampered by hitting in those giant ballparks out west for most games each season.

[Sammy Sofa]

do you feel good with wuertz becoming the primary setup man? eyre/piggy/lieber/hart handling 7th inning duties?

 

Yes and yes, especially if it means Marmol was moved for a serious impact player. Hording excess relievers while the team has gaping holes in everyday starting positions is just flat out stupid and supremely Cub-like.

[TruffleShuffle]

So what would the ceiling be for a player who over 7 years and 975 AB's at age 29 had amassed a career line of .266/.312/.371/.683?

 

For comparison Neifi's career line is .267/.297/.375/.672 and Macias is .256/.298/.371/.669?

 

 

Look at his dramatic and consistent away splits over his career:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=greenkh01&year=00

 

Stop pretending he isn't hampered by hitting in those giant ballparks out west for most games each season.

 

i don't know who he was referring to, but it wasn't khalil greene. khalil is 28, not 29, he's had a hell of a lot more than 975 ABs, and his OPS is .756, not .683.

[TruffleShuffle]

do you feel good with wuertz becoming the primary setup man? eyre/piggy/lieber/hart handling 7th inning duties?

 

Yes and yes, especially if it means Marmol was moved for a serious impact player. Hording excess relievers while the team has gaping holes in everyday starting positions is just flat out stupid and supremely Cub-like.

 

okay, well that's where you and i differ. it's not about hoarding excess relievers; you're making it sound like billy petrick and carlos marmol are just interchangeable parts. petrick would probably be a bad reliever; marmol is a very good one. i think the cubs can upgrade at SS (or CF, if Pie flames out) without dealing key pieces off this year's team.

[Sammy Sofa]

So what would the ceiling be for a player who over 7 years and 975 AB's at age 29 had amassed a career line of .266/.312/.371/.683?

 

For comparison Neifi's career line is .267/.297/.375/.672 and Macias is .256/.298/.371/.669?

 

 

Look at his dramatic and consistent away splits over his career:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=greenkh01&year=00

 

Stop pretending he isn't hampered by hitting in those giant ballparks out west for most games each season.

 

i don't know who he was referring to, but it wasn't khalil greene. khalil is 28, not 29, he's had a hell of a lot more than 975 ABs, and his OPS is .756, not .683.

 

Yeah, it confused me too, but I figured maybe he just made a mistake. It's definitely not Theriot, either.

[UBlink]

So what would the ceiling be for a player who over 7 years and 975 AB's at age 29 had amassed a career line of .266/.312/.371/.683?

 

For comparison Neifi's career line is .267/.297/.375/.672 and Macias is .256/.298/.371/.669?

 

 

Look at his dramatic and consistent away splits over his career:

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=greenkh01&year=00

 

Stop pretending he isn't hampered by hitting in those giant ballparks out west for most games each season.

 

i don't know who he was referring to, but it wasn't khalil greene. khalil is 28, not 29, he's had a hell of a lot more than 975 ABs, and his OPS is .756, not .683.

 

Yeah, it confused me too, but I figured maybe he just made a mistake. It's definitely not Theriot, either.

 

Well, like Greene, the player in mind has been mentioned as a candidate for the SS position.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Well, like Greene, the player in mind has been mentioned as a candidate for the SS position.

please say it's me, I've always wanted to play SS for the Cubs

[UBlink]

Well, like Greene, the player in mind has been mentioned as a candidate for the SS position.

please say it's me, I've always wanted to play SS for the Cubs

 

Get back with us after you get the 975 MLB AB's.

[TruffleShuffle]

i'm really puzzled.

 

not felipe lopez.

not mike fontenot.

not mark derosa.

not khalil greene.

not julio lugo.

not rafael furcal.

 

...

[WarningtrackPower]

i'm really puzzled.

 

not felipe lopez.

not mike fontenot.

not mark derosa.

not khalil greene.

not julio lugo.

not rafael furcal.

 

...

 

Is the answer "Brian Roberts"?

 

I'm just asking cos the answer to most questions lately has been "Brian Roberts".

 

Or, if it was "Jeopardy", "who is Brian Roberts?"...

[imb]

how in the hell do you only accumulate 975 abs in 7 years? Im stumped.

[UBlink]

i'm really puzzled.

 

not felipe lopez.

not mike fontenot.

not mark derosa.

not khalil greene.

not julio lugo.

not rafael furcal.

 

...

 

Not Mark De Rosa?

[CubColtPacer]

i'm really puzzled.

 

not felipe lopez.

not mike fontenot.

not mark derosa.

not khalil greene.

not julio lugo.

not rafael furcal.

 

...

 

Not Mark De Rosa?

 

DeRosa does show that it does happen at least occasionally.

 

Here is his minor league line with over 2000 AB's: .274/.345/.374. UBlink already posted his major league numbers through age 29 earlier on this page, and it wasn't pretty.

 

I don't know if Theriot's body type gives him the same potential as DeRosa, but it's not completely hopeless. More middle infielders figure it out for the first time at age 28-30 than any other position, probably because they are so needed that they get the most chances. I think Theriot could improve even now, but I doubt he could get to DeRosa's level. Maybe to what Eckstein does would be a better projection at what Theriot's improvement could get to.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

DeRosa was breaking into the Major Leagues at the same age that Theriot was splitting time between Low A and AA(both with bad numbers, especially for his age). There's really no comparison.

[imb]

any improvement in theriot's numbers at this point is going to be due to luck on balls in play or steroids. he is who he is

[Vanilla Ice]

I'd feel fine with Wuertz as the setup man and Hart in the 7th inning.

[Illini Iceman]

And a lot of people would be making a really big mistake. RP are extremely important. If your bullpen stinks you will not be in the playoffs. We have a good but not great bullpen and to trade our best guy in that pen (and a lot of other guys who have good trade value) for an above average SS would be a big mistake. Green had an OBP below .300 last year :shock: . Sure he got 27 HR's but a lot of guys who can get away with swinging away every atbat without being benched could get 27 dingers. In the end what he is is a good fielding SS and a frustrating hitter for the team he plays for.

 

Trading Marmol wouldn't make this bullpen stink. The Cubs have the luxury of selling high on a player like Marmol and still having a competitive or better bullpen.

 

Greene's numbers are dragged down by playing half of his season in the cavern that is Petco. Look at his splits. His away OPS was .840 last year. .863 the year before that. Get him out of Petco and into a place like Wrigley and his numbers overall will soar. He's a serious power threat, especially for a SS, and he plays excellent defense at a position where we could use it. Plus, as opposed to Marmol's one inning every other game, he'll play almost every game. If you can use a reliever as a package to get a young, excellent everyday player like Greene, you do it.

 

If it's Marmol for Greene straight up then yes you probably do it but not with all the other guys you listed.

 

Why again would the Padres even consider trading Greene? His name gets brought up a lot here but I must have missed the rationale for a contender with a young quality shortstop wanting to trade him.

[TruffleShuffle]

Why again would the Padres even consider trading Greene? His name gets brought up a lot here but I must have missed the rationale for a contender with a young quality shortstop wanting to trade him.

 

mid-market team and I think he is coming up on free agency after 2009. given the style of hitter that he is, san diego is not getting as much value out of him as they would from a hitter who doesn't have such strong fly ball tendencies. they have to make some decisions in the next few years on guys like kouzmanoff, gonzalez, meredith, young, maybe prior if he ends up having a good 2nd half. they're also losing some big contracts (maddux, edmonds, giles) and may decide that they can afford to give $10M a year to greene. but if they decide to go another way, they can show other teams his road splits as evidence of his considerable value.