2008 Hall of Fame ballot

[Rob]

This guy should be a no brainer, first-ballot, but I fear he'll miss the cut this year.

 

First ballot? Really? He was solid for a long time and still put up great numbers into his 40's (steroids, anyone) but imo first ballot is really stretching it.

 

Raines has more career value than McGwire, according to WARP3... and not by a slim margin.

 

Rock is a first ballot HoF, even if nobody noticed it.

[TruffleShuffle]

This guy should be a no brainer, first-ballot, but I fear he'll miss the cut this year.

 

First ballot? Really? He was solid for a long time and still put up great numbers into his 40's (steroids, anyone) but imo first ballot is really stretching it.

 

Raines has more career value than McGwire, according to WARP3... and not by a slim margin.

 

Rock is a first ballot HoF, even if nobody noticed it.

 

yes but raines also played a lot more - and about 10365 PAs for Raines versus rougly 7940 for McGwire. Mark McGwire was a better player overall, per game, though Raines was more durable.

 

Regardless, they both belong in the Hall.

[dougdescenzo]

This guy should be a no brainer, first-ballot, but I fear he'll miss the cut this year.

 

First ballot? Really? He was solid for a long time and still put up great numbers into his 40's (steroids, anyone) but imo first ballot is really stretching it.

 

Raines has more career value than McGwire, according to WARP3... and not by a slim margin.

 

Rock is a first ballot HoF, even if nobody noticed it.

 

He never finished higher than fifth in the mvp voting. He led his league once in batting average, twice in runs, but never led the league in hits, ops, hr's, or rbi. He wasn't particularly good in the postseason. The only hall of fame statistic he really has is his stolen bases. You also can't ignore his off-field problems as integrity and character are components of the vote. Combine all of that and he's a hall-of-famer maybe, but definitely not on his first try.

[SouthSideRyan]

Raines is Rickey light. Rickey is slam dunk, no doubter. Therefore Raines is an easy HOF.

[Rob]

This guy should be a no brainer, first-ballot, but I fear he'll miss the cut this year.

 

First ballot? Really? He was solid for a long time and still put up great numbers into his 40's (steroids, anyone) but imo first ballot is really stretching it.

 

Raines has more career value than McGwire, according to WARP3... and not by a slim margin.

 

Rock is a first ballot HoF, even if nobody noticed it.

 

He never finished higher than fifth in the mvp voting. He led his league once in batting average, twice in runs, but never led the league in hits, ops, hr's, or rbi. He wasn't particularly good in the postseason. The only hall of fame statistic he really has is his stolen bases. You also can't ignore his off-field problems as integrity and character are components of the vote. Combine all of that and he's a hall-of-famer maybe, but definitely not on his first try.

 

MVP votes mean absolutely nothing, first off. Let's face it, the voters never get it right... hell, they've made a mess out of the vote pretty much every year in recent memory.

 

As for the rest of Rock's accomplishments...

 

7 time all star

Led the league in OBP once, placed in the top six an additional six times.

Top ten in OPS four times, including a 2nd place finish.

Top ten in runs 9 times, including two first place finishes, and two second place finishes. Ranked 46th all-time in his career for runs.

Ranked 68th all-time in his career for hits.

Ranked 100th all-time for total bases.

Top ten finish in triples 9 times.

Ranked 33rd all-time in walks.

Ranked 5th all-time in steals. Top ten finish 11 times, including four times leading the league.

Ranked 51st all-time in runs created.

 

People always compare Rock to Rickey, since they were direct contemporaries. That's really not fair, seeing as how Rickey is a slam-dunk HoF player. Only a handful of players in history are gonna hold up to his standard. But when you compare Rock to all the other players in history, he definately belongs in the Hall.

[dougdescenzo]

This guy should be a no brainer, first-ballot, but I fear he'll miss the cut this year.

 

First ballot? Really? He was solid for a long time and still put up great numbers into his 40's (steroids, anyone) but imo first ballot is really stretching it.

 

Raines has more career value than McGwire, according to WARP3... and not by a slim margin.

 

Rock is a first ballot HoF, even if nobody noticed it.

 

He never finished higher than fifth in the mvp voting. He led his league once in batting average, twice in runs, but never led the league in hits, ops, hr's, or rbi. He wasn't particularly good in the postseason. The only hall of fame statistic he really has is his stolen bases. You also can't ignore his off-field problems as integrity and character are components of the vote. Combine all of that and he's a hall-of-famer maybe, but definitely not on his first try.

 

MVP votes mean absolutely nothing, first off. Let's face it, the voters never get it right... hell, they've made a mess out of the vote pretty much every year in recent memory.

 

As for the rest of Rock's accomplishments...

 

7 time all star

Led the league in OBP once, placed in the top six an additional six times.

Top ten in OPS four times, including a 2nd place finish.

Top ten in runs 9 times, including two first place finishes, and two second place finishes. Ranked 46th all-time in his career for runs.

Ranked 68th all-time in his career for hits.

Ranked 100th all-time for total bases.

Top ten finish in triples 9 times.

Ranked 33rd all-time in walks.

Ranked 5th all-time in steals. Top ten finish 11 times, including four times leading the league.

Ranked 51st all-time in runs created.

 

People always compare Rock to Rickey, since they were direct contemporaries. That's really not fair, seeing as how Rickey is a slam-dunk HoF player. Only a handful of players in history are gonna hold up to his standard. But when you compare Rock to all the other players in history, he definately belongs in the Hall.

 

You're criticizing me for using mvp voting and then you use all-star game appearances. I guess I have a higher standard for guys getting in on their first try. You said yourself that Rickey is a slam dunk and Rock doesn't even compare, yet they're going into the same hall. I think the way to separate the "levels" of players is whether or not they got in on their first ballot. Rock scores lower than the average hall of famer using Bill James' HOF Standards and his HOF Monitor, couple that with his propensity to use blow and I just don't see any validation for him getting in this year.

[Rob]

This guy should be a no brainer, first-ballot, but I fear he'll miss the cut this year.

 

First ballot? Really? He was solid for a long time and still put up great numbers into his 40's (steroids, anyone) but imo first ballot is really stretching it.

 

Raines has more career value than McGwire, according to WARP3... and not by a slim margin.

 

Rock is a first ballot HoF, even if nobody noticed it.

 

He never finished higher than fifth in the mvp voting. He led his league once in batting average, twice in runs, but never led the league in hits, ops, hr's, or rbi. He wasn't particularly good in the postseason. The only hall of fame statistic he really has is his stolen bases. You also can't ignore his off-field problems as integrity and character are components of the vote. Combine all of that and he's a hall-of-famer maybe, but definitely not on his first try.

 

MVP votes mean absolutely nothing, first off. Let's face it, the voters never get it right... hell, they've made a mess out of the vote pretty much every year in recent memory.

 

As for the rest of Rock's accomplishments...

 

7 time all star

Led the league in OBP once, placed in the top six an additional six times.

Top ten in OPS four times, including a 2nd place finish.

Top ten in runs 9 times, including two first place finishes, and two second place finishes. Ranked 46th all-time in his career for runs.

Ranked 68th all-time in his career for hits.

Ranked 100th all-time for total bases.

Top ten finish in triples 9 times.

Ranked 33rd all-time in walks.

Ranked 5th all-time in steals. Top ten finish 11 times, including four times leading the league.

Ranked 51st all-time in runs created.

 

People always compare Rock to Rickey, since they were direct contemporaries. That's really not fair, seeing as how Rickey is a slam-dunk HoF player. Only a handful of players in history are gonna hold up to his standard. But when you compare Rock to all the other players in history, he definately belongs in the Hall.

 

You're criticizing me for using mvp voting and then you use all-star game appearances. I guess I have a higher standard for guys getting in on their first try. You said yourself that Rickey is a slam dunk and Rock doesn't even compare, yet they're going into the same hall. I think the way to separate the "levels" of players is whether or not they got in on their first ballot. Rock scores lower than the average hall of famer using Bill James' HOF Standards and his HOF Monitor, couple that with his propensity to use blow and I just don't see any validation for him getting in this year.

 

Fair enough on the All Star thing... but take a look at this.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=684

 

Rock's JAWS score - 102.1

Avg HoF LF - 86.8

 

And that's not just his longevity speaking... he's got a better peak than the average HoF left fielder too.

 

My personal philosophy, if he's in the top 10 at his position, he should be voted in first ballot. Rock falls in that top ten.

[SouthSideRyan]

My personal philosophy is who cares about first ballot/non-first ballot. If a guy's good enough on the 10th ballot, he's good enough on the 1st ballot. I'm fine with 15 years because people's minds change, cases can be made. But if you believe right now that he's deserving of being a HOFer, then vote for him now.

[bhogg]

Don't forget that Tim Raines is the best lead off hitter in RBI baseball.

 

Followed closely by should-be HOF'er, Allan Trammell

[TruffleShuffle]

My personal philosophy is who cares about first ballot/non-first ballot. If a guy's good enough on the 10th ballot, he's good enough on the 1st ballot. I'm fine with 15 years because people's minds change, cases can be made. But if you believe right now that he's deserving of being a HOFer, then vote for him now.

 

Agreed... I don't buy the crap about how certain players aren't "good enough" to get in on the first ballot. If a guy is good enough to be in the HoF, then vote for him whenever he becomes eligible. If he's not good enough, then don't vote for him. But don't hold back on your vote because you think only guys like Ruth, Williams and Mays should get in on the first ballot. The HoF is permanent, once you're in you're in for good, and nobody is going to remember who got in on the first ballot and who got in on their second eligible year. Putting Tim Raines in on the first ballot doesn't mean that people are going to think he's as good as Babe Ruth.

[Coach C]

What's Raines career line?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

What's Raines career line?

 

294/385/425 123OPS+

 

1571 runs, 170 HR, 808 SB, 430 2B

[Coach C]

What's Raines career line?

 

294/385/425 123OPS+

 

1571 runs, 170 HR, 808 SB, 430 2B

 

Almost hit for average, with a solid OBP and the OPS. I remember being a kid, that he somewhat annoyed me becuase he was pretty good getting on base.

[OleMissCub]

I think Raines is a perfect example of the type of player that divides the "Hall of the Greats" people from the "Hall of the Excellent " people...if that makes any sense.

 

If I was a "Hall of the Excellent" type of person, I wouldn't put anyone in this year....although last year I would have definitely put in Gwynn and Ripken.