Mike Fontenot

[Skyballer]

theriot is slightly above average at getting on base and well below average at hitting for power for shortstops. he's pretty much the definition of average at this point.

you seem to forget SB and fielding.

and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average.

 

he's an average fielder despite your efforts to argue otherwise. he's tied for 4th in SB among shorstops. Hanley Ramirez is the only "bad" base-stealer ahead of him (below 77 percent success rate). 19 stolen bases don't really mean much.

They've come in meaningful times.

unlike Reyes who will steal just to up his numbers.

 

Clutch stolen bases?

 

That's a first. :lol:

would you rather a guy steal when you have a 5 run lead or a difference of one run.

 

You're trying to tell me that every single Ryan Theriot stolen base has come in a meaningful time?

 

Here's a question: who would you rather have as your starting SS, Theriot or Reyes?

Last i checked, Reyes isn't an available upgrade.

[Drew Doughty]

Last i checked, Reyes isn't an available upgrade.

 

that wasn't the question.

[E.J.]

theriot is slightly above average at getting on base and well below average at hitting for power for shortstops. he's pretty much the definition of average at this point.

you seem to forget SB and fielding.

and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average.

 

he's an average fielder despite your efforts to argue otherwise. he's tied for 4th in SB among shorstops. Hanley Ramirez is the only "bad" base-stealer ahead of him (below 77 percent success rate). 19 stolen bases don't really mean much.

They've come in meaningful times.

unlike Reyes who will steal just to up his numbers.

 

Clutch stolen bases?

 

That's a first. :lol:

would you rather a guy steal when you have a 5 run lead or a difference of one run.

 

You're trying to tell me that every single Ryan Theriot stolen base has come in a meaningful time?

 

Here's a question: who would you rather have as your starting SS, Theriot or Reyes?

Last i checked, Reyes isn't an available upgrade.

 

That's not what I asked. I asked you who you would rather have starting on your team.

[Skyballer]

theriot is slightly above average at getting on base and well below average at hitting for power for shortstops. he's pretty much the definition of average at this point.

you seem to forget SB and fielding.

and don't give me the argument on his range it's very good and his arm is definitely average.

 

he's an average fielder despite your efforts to argue otherwise. he's tied for 4th in SB among shorstops. Hanley Ramirez is the only "bad" base-stealer ahead of him (below 77 percent success rate). 19 stolen bases don't really mean much.

They've come in meaningful times.

unlike Reyes who will steal just to up his numbers.

 

Clutch stolen bases?

 

That's a first. :lol:

would you rather a guy steal when you have a 5 run lead or a difference of one run.

 

You're trying to tell me that every single Ryan Theriot stolen base has come in a meaningful time?

 

Here's a question: who would you rather have as your starting SS, Theriot or Reyes?

Last i checked, Reyes isn't an available upgrade.

 

That's not what I asked. I asked you who you would rather have starting on your team.

Reyes but I'm more concerned about whether we should have traded for a less than mediocre SS like you all think.

[Chocolate Milk]

Anze, are you taking into account the clutch steals? Not all steals are created equal, my friend.

[Drew Doughty]

Reyes but I'm more concerned about whether we should have traded for a less than mediocre SS like you all think.

 

i don't know what you mean here. are you saying we shouldn't try upgrade at short at all?

[Skyballer]

Reyes but I'm more concerned about whether we should have traded for a less than mediocre SS like you all think.

 

i don't know what you mean here. are you saying we shouldn't try upgrade at short at all?

THERE IS NO POSSIBLE UPGRADE :!: :!:

Theriot hits fields and runs the bases at a good clip, no need to upgrade.

[Drew Doughty]

Reyes but I'm more concerned about whether we should have traded for a less than mediocre SS like you all think.

 

i don't know what you mean here. are you saying we shouldn't try upgrade at short at all?

THERE IS NO POSSIBLE UPGRADE :!: :!:

Theriot hits fields and runs the bases at a good clip, no need to upgrade.

 

he doesn't do that though. he does all of those things at a very average clip (except steal bases which he is above average at).

[Skyballer]

Reyes but I'm more concerned about whether we should have traded for a less than mediocre SS like you all think.

 

i don't know what you mean here. are you saying we shouldn't try upgrade at short at all?

THERE IS NO POSSIBLE UPGRADE :!: :!:

Theriot hits fields and runs the bases at a good clip, no need to upgrade.

 

he doesn't do that though. he does all of those things at a very average clip (except steal bases which he is above average at).

what about getting on base.

11 out of 27 for SS

[Drew Doughty]

Reyes but I'm more concerned about whether we should have traded for a less than mediocre SS like you all think.

 

i don't know what you mean here. are you saying we shouldn't try upgrade at short at all?

THERE IS NO POSSIBLE UPGRADE :!: :!:

Theriot hits fields and runs the bases at a good clip, no need to upgrade.

 

he doesn't do that though. he does all of those things at a very average clip (except steal bases which he is above average at).

what about getting on base.

11 out of 27 for SS

 

i already pointed that out a few posts ago. he's above average at getting on base (.015 above NL average for SS) and well below average at hitting for power (.045 below NL average for SS). it's pretty much a wash.

[Skyballer]

Reyes but I'm more concerned about whether we should have traded for a less than mediocre SS like you all think.

 

i don't know what you mean here. are you saying we shouldn't try upgrade at short at all?

THERE IS NO POSSIBLE UPGRADE :!: :!:

Theriot hits fields and runs the bases at a good clip, no need to upgrade.

 

he doesn't do that though. he does all of those things at a very average clip (except steal bases which he is above average at).

what about getting on base.

11 out of 27 for SS

 

i already pointed that out a few posts ago. he's above average at getting on base (.015 above NL average for SS) and well below average at hitting for power (.045 below NL average for SS). it's pretty much a wash.

OBP is more important for sure.

When he hits a single there's a good chance he steals second making it a double.

[Drew Doughty]

Reyes but I'm more concerned about whether we should have traded for a less than mediocre SS like you all think.

 

i don't know what you mean here. are you saying we shouldn't try upgrade at short at all?

THERE IS NO POSSIBLE UPGRADE :!: :!:

Theriot hits fields and runs the bases at a good clip, no need to upgrade.

 

he doesn't do that though. he does all of those things at a very average clip (except steal bases which he is above average at).

what about getting on base.

11 out of 27 for SS

 

i already pointed that out a few posts ago. he's above average at getting on base (.015 above NL average for SS) and well below average at hitting for power (.045 below NL average for SS). it's pretty much a wash.

OBP is more important for sure.

When he hits a single there's a good chance he steals second making it a double.

 

he has 19 steals this year. not 50 like reyes where it's legitimately a good chance he actually turns a single into a double.

 

OBP is more important, but you're putting too much emphasis on it and de-valuing power almost completely. it's ridiculous.

[Skyballer]

Reyes but I'm more concerned about whether we should have traded for a less than mediocre SS like you all think.

 

i don't know what you mean here. are you saying we shouldn't try upgrade at short at all?

THERE IS NO POSSIBLE UPGRADE :!: :!:

Theriot hits fields and runs the bases at a good clip, no need to upgrade.

 

he doesn't do that though. he does all of those things at a very average clip (except steal bases which he is above average at).

what about getting on base.

11 out of 27 for SS

 

i already pointed that out a few posts ago. he's above average at getting on base (.015 above NL average for SS) and well below average at hitting for power (.045 below NL average for SS). it's pretty much a wash.

OBP is more important for sure.

When he hits a single there's a good chance he steals second making it a double.

he has 19 steals this year. not 50 like reyes where it's legitimately a good chance he actually turns a single into a double.

 

 

OBP is more important, but you're putting too much emphasis on it and de-valuing power almost completely. it's ridiculous.

Those steals occur whe they need to, if he was sent as much as Reyes or tried in dumb sitautions as much as Reyes he would have more steals

[Drew Doughty]

Those steals occur whe they need to, if he was sent as much as Reyes or tried in dumb sitautions as much as Reyes he would have more steals

 

already went through this. he has 1 extra steal in close and late situations, 2 fewer CS. it's not like reyes is a bum on the bases. he beats the break-even point of 77.

[Mizzou]

The OPS thing is getting absurdly out of control on this board. Yes, it'd be great if every starter put up a 900 OPS or better. I'd love to have every Cub get on base 40% of the time and SLG 500. But that's incredibly unrealistic. The bottom line is that Ryan Theriot doesn't need to hit for power to be a good player. When his OBP is 11th out of 28 qualifiers, that's good enough for me at the SS position. Any pop from him is a bonus. If he were our cleanup hitter, I'd be bitching about his lack of power too. But he hits second. It's hit job to get on base, and get runners over. And he's good at each of those. People seriously need to stop citing his OPS and calling him below average. The guy hits .280 and has a 350 OBP. That's solid production for your number two hitter.

 

And if you want to be honest when looking at his production, factor his SB's into his SLG%. I'd be willing to bet that when doing so (which is completely legit), he's right around the middle of the pack in terms of SLG from the SS position.

[Skyballer]

Those steals occur whe they need to, if he was sent as much as Reyes or tried in dumb sitautions as much as Reyes he would have more steals

 

already went through this. he has 1 extra steal in close and late situations, 2 fewer CS. it's not like reyes is a bum on the bases. he beats the break-even point of 77.

Theriot is a better base stealer and percentages prove it.

How many steals are simply in close situations for Theriot and Reyes.

[brinoch]

They're winning elsewhere.

 

What does this mean? Please, if you want to debate and be heard or taken seriously, use more than one-liners to support your points. I've been watching and reading your posts for a while now and controversy surrounds you in large part because you do not adequately support your contentions.

Please if you want to make sense don't make silly statements, My point is that they're scoring runs very well with Theriot stealing bases and without hitting doubles, triples and HR.

Furthermore, i contend that there aren't very many power options at short and that SS isn't the place to look for power.

Lee, Ramirez and Sori should be hitting for power, yet they're not. Are we to say we need a new 1B, 3B and LF no, because they're getting on base, much the same way Theriot is.

So please Brinoch, enlighten us as to why we still need a new SS.

 

Are you really calling my statements silly? Seriously? Are you sure you wanna go down this road? Because it's gonna get pretty rough for you as I verbally thrash you for your refusal to use logic, offer support for your statements, and hold to a consistent line of reasoning.

[Drew Doughty]

And if you want to be honest when looking at his production, factor his SB's into his SLG%. I'd be willing to bet that when doing so (which is completely legit), he's right around the middle of the pack in terms of SLG from the SS position.

 

factoring SB-CS (very rough), 15 extra bases, his SLG goes up to a still below league average .408. If you factor it in around league wide, he would still be well below average SLG-wise.

[Drew Doughty]

Those steals occur whe they need to, if he was sent as much as Reyes or tried in dumb sitautions as much as Reyes he would have more steals

 

already went through this. he has 1 extra steal in close and late situations, 2 fewer CS. it's not like reyes is a bum on the bases. he beats the break-even point of 77.

 

Theriot is a better base stealer and percentages prove it.

How many steals are simply in close situations for Theriot and Reyes.

 

you already provided the argument why theriot is pretty much on the same level. if theriot had the 70 stolen base attempts or whatever Reyes has, his percentage would go down. he proved this throughout his minor league career (115/164, 70.12%). a lot of SB% has to do with the manager anyway, and Lou has proven throughout his career that he's pretty good at handling runners on the bases. arguing this point is non-sense anyway.

[TruffleShuffle]

there weren't many upgrades at SS available at the trade deadline, so i am fine with what theriot gives you there for the rest of this year. In the future I'd like somebody better, but I'd also like outfielders who can hit too, and I think that's a position that would've been easier to upgrade.

[Irrelevant Dude]

The OPS thing is getting absurdly out of control on this board.

I agree. I get tired of reading posts with these Moneyball stats being the only way to evaluate a player. Sure OPS is a useful stat, but I refuse to believe that any one stat can truly reflect someone's value.

[TruffleShuffle]

The OPS thing is getting absurdly out of control on this board.

I agree. I get tired of reading posts with these Moneyball stats being the only way to evaluate a player. Sure OPS is a useful stat, but I refuse to believe that any one stat can truly reflect someone's value.

 

okay but OBP will always be the best "basic" stat in my book. I could give you EqA or VORP, but how many people really get those? In any case, his EqA and VORP are middle of the pack, but he's just miles behind the truly good SS in baseball.

[TruffleShuffle]

The OPS thing is getting absurdly out of control on this board.

I agree. I get tired of reading posts with these Moneyball stats being the only way to evaluate a player. Sure OPS is a useful stat, but I refuse to believe that any one stat can truly reflect someone's value.

 

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[Productive Outs]

The OPS thing is getting absurdly out of control on this board.

I agree. I get tired of reading posts with these Moneyball stats being the only way to evaluate a player. Sure OPS is a useful stat, but I refuse to believe that any one stat can truly reflect someone's value.

 

they're not the only way, but on a message board, they're usually the best.

[TruffleShuffle]

The OPS thing is getting absurdly out of control on this board.

I agree. I get tired of reading posts with these Moneyball stats being the only way to evaluate a player. Sure OPS is a useful stat, but I refuse to believe that any one stat can truly reflect someone's value.

 

they're not the only way, but on a message board, they're usually the best.

 

nah let's get back to the good ol' days of using batting average to determine a player's worth