Which banned players should be in the HOF?

[OleMissCub]

Is there a good informational book anybody has read on the Black Sox. I've seen "Eight Men Out" at the bookstore but never picked it up. Anybody read that and have any thoughts on it?

 

Without question get Asinof's "Eight Men Out". Definitely one of the better baseball books I've read. Number one easily being "Cobb" by Al Stump.

[TruffleShuffle]

I said this in another thread, anyone HOF-worthy should be in. The Hall of Fame is about the game's history and the best players who played it, not for withholding moral judgment on who should be in.

 

yes, but a player intentionally performing poorly for money on the biggest stage is not in the vein of Pete Rose, Ty Cobb or whatever other lowlife you want to throw in there. I agree that a player's actions off the field should not be considered, unless they do something like bomb the Statue of Liberty or turn into Ted Bundy. But I'm judging Ciccotte and Jackson as not worthy for the Hall because of their actions on the field - namely, throwing games for money on the sport's biggest stage. That, to me, is inexcusable.

 

That's a pretty ignorant statement of the facts. Look up Shoeless Joe's stats from that series. If he was throwing anything, I'd hate to see the numbers he'd put up trying.

 

That's a pretty ignorant analysis of the facts. Look up Shoeless Joe's stats from games the Black Sox lost in that series, versus the stats in the games that they won. Night and day. Also look at the fact that he was one of the best fielders in the league, and allowed three triples in the series while playing leftfield. And not the least of all was that he accepted money with the understanding that he'd help the Black Sox lose.

 

Game 1: 0-4 in 9-1 loss

Game 2: 3-4, 2B in 4-2 loss

Game 3: 2-3 in 3-0 win

Game 4: 1-4, 2B in 2-0 loss

Game 5: 0-4 in 5-0 loss

Game 6: 2-4, RBI in 5-4 win

Game 7: 2-4, 2 RBI in 4-1 win

Game 8: 2-5, 2B, HR, 3 RBI in 10-5 loss

 

In 3 wins: 6-11, 3 RBI

In 5 losses: 6-21, 3 2B, HR, 3 RBI

 

I wouldn't say they're night and day. His SLG was better in the games they lost than the games they won.

 

I'm almost positive that most of his contributions in game 8 came when the game was pretty much decided.

[Rob]

If memory serves, I want to say Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker were caught throwing games. Ban Johnson just gave them a slap on the wrist and sent them on their way, though... and both are now in the Hall.

 

Just throwing that out there.

[Sammy Sofa]

If memory serves, I want to say Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker were caught throwing games. Ban Johnson just gave them a slap on the wrist and sent them on their way, though... and both are now in the Hall.

 

Just throwing that out there.

 

Yeah, I remember hearing the same thing, I believe in Ken Burns' documentary and book.

[OleMissCub]

If memory serves, I want to say Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker were caught throwing games. Ban Johnson just gave them a slap on the wrist and sent them on their way, though... and both are now in the Hall.

 

Just throwing that out there.

 

Yeah, I remember hearing the same thing, I believe in Ken Burns' documentary and book.

 

The Cobb/Speaker/Wood/Leonard scandal is still a bit of a mystery. But it seems like it stemmed from a common occurrence back in those days, something called "good fellowship" games that often occurred near the end of a season. Back then, teams that finished second and third in the standings also got a share of the World Series money.

 

In this particular case, Speaker and Wood's Indians had already clinched 2nd place while Cobb's and Leonard's Tigers were battling the Yankees for a third place finish and thus a share of the WS money. The story goes that the 4 met under the bleachers before the final game of the series where Speaker and Wood told Cobb "not to worry about anything."

 

Leonard was a pitcher for the Tigers who was subsequently cut by Cobb, who was a manager then. Leonard then went to Cleveland, where Speaker managed, and was cut by him. So 7 years later he approached the MLB with this information and didn't even hide his motive: he wanted revenge on Cobb and Speaker.

 

But ya, the incident is still unclear.