How the heck did Edmonds even win ONE gold glove?

[Abe Frohman]

was

 

Well worded, no?

[CubRock2]

Geez. I can't freakin stand the showboater, but the guy is a no-doubter great defender. This is like judging Randy Johnson's career by how he pitches now. Just not fair, nor reasonable. And add to it, his brain is in scrambles, and we "hate him" and think he sucks. Geez... I guess we just can't recognize the he WAS good, and enjoy the fact that he's not raking or bringing in lots of extra base hits.

 

And while playing shallow is stupid for most, Edmonds got away with it most of his career. On the plus side, he threw out lots of potential runs by playing so shallow, and even prevented some from running on him because of that shallow depth. Most typical basehits or run-scoring shots were taken away because of that strategy. Are we just jealous that we haven't had a decent CF in so long?

[Guest]

that's a large avatar

 

Says the guy with the very large sig.

 

No doubt and what the hell is it?

 

Zach Braff and Mandy Moore dressing up in Harry Potter regalia. Duh.

[dalgreen]

I hate the guy, but this catch is probably the best play I've ever seen.

 

agreed

 

that catch was only necessary because he was playing 3 steps behind 2nd base at the time

 

If you can play a shallow CF and still get back to make those catches - that is a defensive plus, not something to make fun of as setting oneself up for highlight reel catches.

 

Jim Edmonds was a badass CFer.

 

The problem is the number of doubles he gave up because he refused to just play at average depth in centerfield. I hate that he gets props for making catches that Andrew Jones or Griffey, Jr, or others make look simple. I especially hated some media in St. Louis (namely Frank Cusamano, and others) who have the audacity to say that he's the Cardinals best defensive CF in their history. Particularly since most of the media were alive to see Curt Flood and Willie McGee, who made spectacular Edmonds' catches look like cans of corn.

[mjohnson71]

I hate the guy, but this catch is probably the best play I've ever seen.

 

agreed

 

that catch was only necessary because he was playing 3 steps behind 2nd base at the time

 

If you can play a shallow CF and still get back to make those catches - that is a defensive plus, not something to make fun of as setting oneself up for highlight reel catches.

 

Jim Edmonds was a badass CFer.

 

The problem is the number of doubles he gave up because he refused to just play at average depth in centerfield. I hate that he gets props for making catches that Andrew Jones or Griffey, Jr, or others make look simple. I especially hated some media in St. Louis (namely Frank Cusamano, and others) who have the audacity to say that he's the Cardinals best defensive CF in their history. Particularly since most of the media were alive to see Curt Flood and Willie McGee, who made spectacular Edmonds' catches look like cans of corn.

 

But didn't Flood cost the Cardinals the 68' World Series by misplaying a fly ball?

[dalgreen]

I hate the guy, but this catch is probably the best play I've ever seen.

 

agreed

 

that catch was only necessary because he was playing 3 steps behind 2nd base at the time

 

If you can play a shallow CF and still get back to make those catches - that is a defensive plus, not something to make fun of as setting oneself up for highlight reel catches.

 

Jim Edmonds was a badass CFer.

 

The problem is the number of doubles he gave up because he refused to just play at average depth in centerfield. I hate that he gets props for making catches that Andrew Jones or Griffey, Jr, or others make look simple. I especially hated some media in St. Louis (namely Frank Cusamano, and others) who have the audacity to say that he's the Cardinals best defensive CF in their history. Particularly since most of the media were alive to see Curt Flood and Willie McGee, who made spectacular Edmonds' catches look like cans of corn.

 

But didn't Flood cost the Cardinals the 68' World Series by misplaying a fly ball?

 

That's correct. But does that particular error mean he wasn't a good defensive CF?

[Faceman]

This thread is hilarious.

 

So the Cards fans are blind sheep because they love Edmonds and think he WAS a great CF.

 

What about the Cub fans who hate him just because he's a Card? They see clearly?

 

At least a couple fans in this thread aren't so biased to see it.

 

He even won a couple gold gloves before he ever made it to St. Louis.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/edmonji01.shtml

[seanimal]

Gold Gloves are stupid awards.

 

That being said, Edmonds used to be one of the best at his position, and was formally recognized as such.

[TruffleShuffle]

This thread is hilarious.

 

So the Cards fans are blind sheep because they love Edmonds and think he WAS a great CF.

 

What about the Cub fans who hate him just because he's a Card? They see clearly?

 

At least a couple fans in this thread aren't so biased to see it.

 

He even won a couple gold gloves before he ever made it to St. Louis.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/edmonji01.shtml

 

I think it's more accurate to say that later in his career, he was overrated defensively. A big reason is because he was previously an excellent defender. That's not just something that happens to Jim Edmonds; players commonly undeserved Gold Gloves and are selected to the All-Star game based on reputation and historical performance.

[XZero771679666304]

This thread is hilarious.

 

So the Cards fans are blind sheep because they love Edmonds and think he WAS a great CF.

 

What about the Cub fans who hate him just because he's a Card? They see clearly?

 

At least a couple fans in this thread aren't so biased to see it.

 

He even won a couple gold gloves before he ever made it to St. Louis.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/edmonji01.shtml

 

I think it's more accurate to say that later in his career, he was overrated defensively. A big reason is because he was previously an excellent defender. That's not just something that happens to Jim Edmonds; players commonly undeserved Gold Gloves and are selected to the All-Star game based on reputation and historical performance.

 

Bingo.

[Faceman]

This thread is hilarious.

 

So the Cards fans are blind sheep because they love Edmonds and think he WAS a great CF.

 

What about the Cub fans who hate him just because he's a Card? They see clearly?

 

At least a couple fans in this thread aren't so biased to see it.

 

He even won a couple gold gloves before he ever made it to St. Louis.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/edmonji01.shtml

 

I think it's more accurate to say that later in his career, he was overrated defensively. A big reason is because he was previously an excellent defender. That's not just something that happens to Jim Edmonds; players commonly undeserved Gold Gloves and are selected to the All-Star game based on reputation and historical performance.

 

Bingo.

 

I would agree and also add offensive performance at predominately defensive positions to that list . . . Ryne Sandberg made a living making the routine plays, hitting 30 dingers and taking the gold glove.

[dalgreen]

This thread is hilarious.

 

So the Cards fans are blind sheep because they love Edmonds and think he WAS a great CF.

 

What about the Cub fans who hate him just because he's a Card? They see clearly?

 

At least a couple fans in this thread aren't so biased to see it.

 

He even won a couple gold gloves before he ever made it to St. Louis.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/edmonji01.shtml

 

I think it's more accurate to say that later in his career, he was overrated defensively. A big reason is because he was previously an excellent defender. That's not just something that happens to Jim Edmonds; players commonly undeserved Gold Gloves and are selected to the All-Star game based on reputation and historical performance.

 

Bingo.

 

I would agree and also add offensive performance at predominately defensive positions to that list . . . Ryne Sandberg made a living making the routine plays, hitting 30 dingers and taking the gold glove.

 

The biggest difference here is that there aren't many Cub fans who call Sandberg "a great defensive second baseman". Over his career he was very good but not great defensively.

 

I call Edmonds very good but not great because it's not as if he got to balls that other CFs couldn't get to. Ozzie Smith I consider a great defensive player because he did get to balls that no other SS would get to.

I also call Willie McGee a great defensive CF because he got to balls not many CF could get to --- including Edmonds. It's too bad that McGee played for the Cards in an era when the Cardinals didn't televise home games and ESPN wasn't what it is today or people would recognize McGee for his defensive skills. And he played at a time when there were several above average defensive OFs like Murphy, Maddox and Dawson just to name a few.

[Outshined_One]

The biggest difference here is that there aren't many Cub fans who call Sandberg "a great defensive second baseman". Over his career he was very good but not great defensively.

 

The thing you have to remember about second base is, if you're a phenomenal defender at second base, odds are really good that you'll be moved to shortstop. If you don't have the defensive prowess to cut it at SS on a regular basis, you normally get moved to 2B.

 

With regards to Sandberg, what made him terrific was that he was one of the best when it came to anticipating plays. The reason why he made a living off of routine plays was that he rarely was out of position on groundballs. His instincts, in my opinion, were absolutely terrific for his position and made him a great defensive second baseman. Maybe he wasn't the same caliber of athlete as someone like Ozzie Smith, but my point remains.

 

When it comes to Edmonds, his knee injuries did him in. There was once a point in time when he was fast enough and good enough with his glove to play shallow CF and be able to cover a lot of ground in the OF. However, he's had his share of lapses when it comes to reads and routes in CF. Because of his speed and glovework, he could overcome those flaws and still make plays on balls. However, as his knees got more and more banged up, he could no longer get to certain balls that he once did in earlier days. Moreover, thanks to his concussion problems, his reflexes seem to have gone down the crapper recently.

 

I never liked the guy, but I'm happy to acknowledge his past successes.

[PujolsPower]

That's correct. But does that particular error mean he wasn't a good defensive CF?

 

No. Of course the same could be said for the premise of this thread. Seeing a 37 year old outfielder that is well past his prime defensively misplay a flyball does not mean that he was not a great defender for a number of years.

[Faceman]

 

The biggest difference here is that there aren't many Cub fans who call Sandberg "a great defensive second baseman". Over his career he was very good but not great defensively.

 

I call Edmonds very good but not great because it's not as if he got to balls that other CFs couldn't get to. Ozzie Smith I consider a great defensive player because he did get to balls that no other SS would get to.

I also call Willie McGee a great defensive CF because he got to balls not many CF could get to --- including Edmonds. It's too bad that McGee played for the Cards in an era when the Cardinals didn't televise home games and ESPN wasn't what it is today or people would recognize McGee for his defensive skills. And he played at a time when there were several above average defensive OFs like Murphy, Maddox and Dawson just to name a few.

 

Well I suppose I'm talking to the wrong fans - most of my Cub fan friends believe Sandberg was great defensively. Or they are telling me that just to boast. . whatever.

 

I remember Willie McGee, he is my fav player of all time in St. Louis. Unfortunately, I was too young to really evaluate him like I have been able to with Edmonds. I too wonder how the two would be remembered if they played in similar circumstances (not just TV and ESPN, but the style of play - defense and speed were the norm in St. Louis then, McGee may not have stood out like Edmonds does in a home run era)

 

That said, Edmonds isn't the fastest or quickest in the OF - and I think his anticipation allows him to get to balls that he wouldn't get to, ala Sandberg.

 

Since I've had DirectTV and St. Louis local channels (starting in 2002) I've probably watched 80-85% of Cards games. Followed them religiously before but couldn't watch as many. It's my personal belief that Edmonds takes way too much heat for diving. The fact is that he makes plays that most don't. Maybe he doesn't need to dive here and there, occasionally. But the catch in KC, the catches in Cincinnati, the one against Houston in 2004 - those plays aren't being made around the league with the regularity that Edmonds made them, except for Torii Hunter, maybe Andruw Jones.

 

Others have said he dives for balls others get to easily. I'm not sure I agree with that 100% but if that's the case, it's quite often due to the fact that Edmonds is playing shallow, taking away short CF.

 

It is my opinion that Edmonds is damned either way. Most people hate him because they think he showboats, and that affects the way they view him. I'd love to see anybody point me to a clip where Edmonds pauses and watches a homer. Even when Z hit him, Edmonds homered the next time and put his head down.

 

Anyway - enough of this rant. Cub fans aren't alone - the Astros fan I work with thinks he showboats at the plate. . . if you wanna gripe about staring down dingers, the conversation and hate should begin and end with Albert.

[XZero771679666304]

That's correct. But does that particular error mean he wasn't a good defensive CF?

 

No. Of course the same could be said for the premise of this thread. Seeing a 37 year old outfielder that is well past his prime defensively misplay a flyball does not mean that he was not a great defender for a number of years.

 

Edmonds was a great defender for a few years - in Anaheim. He hasn't been great for years. He is great at robbing homers and making difficult plays look spectacular.

 

I have and will maintain that even going back 4-5 years, Edmonds was making the highlight reels for plays that Andruw Jones, Torii Hunter and others make look routine.

 

For quite awhile Edmonds has been massively overrated because of his panache in the field.