stop spending big $ on setup men, please

[98navigator]

The defense let Eyre down; Izzy needed to make sure he got that third out instead of double clutching. Beyond that, Cox was smart to send a boat load of righties to the plate because he knew the Cubs' bullpen was short...

 

 

our......he could have not walked two people. call me crazy.

 

I totally agree with not walking people. I also think it was obvious Eyre was running out of gas and under normal circumstances, had others been available, he would have been pulled earlier in the inning. Again, credit Cox for bringing in the RH pinch hitters because he knew the Cubs bullpen situation. The ball to Izturis should have ended the inning without a run scoring; He was too lackadaisical.

[CubColtPacer]

The defense let Eyre down; Izzy needed to make sure he got that third out instead of double clutching. Beyond that, Cox was smart to send a boat load of righties to the plate because he knew the Cubs' bullpen was short...

 

 

our......he could have not walked two people. call me crazy.

 

I totally agree with not walking people. I also think it was obvious Eyre was running out of gas and under normal circumstances, had others been available, he would have been pulled earlier in the inning. Again, credit Cox for bringing in the RH pinch hitters because he knew the Cubs bullpen situation. The ball to Izturis should have ended the inning without a run scoring; He was too lackadaisical.

 

Yup-the guy was actually still out at first, but Izturis made it close enough with his hesitancy that it enabled the umpire to make that call.

[jersey cubs fan]

The defense let Eyre down; Izzy needed to make sure he got that third out instead of double clutching. Beyond that, Cox was smart to send a boat load of righties to the plate because he knew the Cubs' bullpen was short...

 

 

our......he could have not walked two people. call me crazy.

 

I totally agree with not walking people. I also think it was obvious Eyre was running out of gas and under normal circumstances, had others been available, he would have been pulled earlier in the inning. Again, credit Cox for bringing in the RH pinch hitters because he knew the Cubs bullpen situation. The ball to Izturis should have ended the inning without a run scoring; He was too lackadaisical.

 

Why are we crediting Cox for bringing in RH bats to face a LHP? It wasn't a difficult call.

[soapy]

The defense let Eyre down; Izzy needed to make sure he got that third out instead of double clutching. Beyond that, Cox was smart to send a boat load of righties to the plate because he knew the Cubs' bullpen was short...

 

 

our......he could have not walked two people. call me crazy.

 

I totally agree with not walking people. I also think it was obvious Eyre was running out of gas and under normal circumstances, had others been available, he would have been pulled earlier in the inning. Again, credit Cox for bringing in the RH pinch hitters because he knew the Cubs bullpen situation. The ball to Izturis should have ended the inning without a run scoring; He was too lackadaisical.

 

Why are we crediting Cox for bringing in RH bats to face a LHP? It wasn't a difficult call.

Especially considering that's pretty much all he had on his bench because he started all of his lefties. It's not rocket science, nor is the Cubs' biggest problem...WALKS!

[98navigator]

The defense let Eyre down; Izzy needed to make sure he got that third out instead of double clutching. Beyond that, Cox was smart to send a boat load of righties to the plate because he knew the Cubs' bullpen was short...

 

 

our......he could have not walked two people. call me crazy.

 

I totally agree with not walking people. I also think it was obvious Eyre was running out of gas and under normal circumstances, had others been available, he would have been pulled earlier in the inning. Again, credit Cox for bringing in the RH pinch hitters because he knew the Cubs bullpen situation. The ball to Izturis should have ended the inning without a run scoring; He was too lackadaisical.

 

Why are we crediting Cox for bringing in RH bats to face a LHP? It wasn't a difficult call.

 

Of course it was the right call. My point is the Cubs could not respond by removing Eyre. Even though he's been used to pitch entire innings in the past, the chances are greater that a RH will do more damage against him.

[jjgman21]

I think it's a mixed bag of cases, though. As an example, Veres wasn't the main target in the trade with Col - he came along with Kile. And he was just an arbitration eligible guy when he was acquired. As soon as he hit FA, they let him go (and the Cubs paid him $2M to sign him). Timlin came as a salary dump by the O's at the trade deadline in 2000 when the Alan Benes experiment didn't pan out. Steve Kline was also just a fairly cheap, arby-eligible guy when brought over and existed on year to year contracts. Ray King was an arby guy and only cost $900K when he was brought on board. Sensing a trend here? The Cards did not go out and allocate a bunch of payroll and they did not give up a lot to get these guys. When they hit FA and would require a multi-year commitment, they cut them loose.

 

It's a pretty simple concept, actually. Don't make long-term commitments to relievers. They're simply too fickle. Jocketty gets it.

 

I think this will probably be an issue on here all year, so bumping shouldn't be a big deal.

 

I think your point has morphed over the coarse of this thread. it started as 'the Cardinals build their pen from minor league scrap. here it is somewhere between 'don't sign relievers long term' and 'don't allocate alot of money to the pen.' actually, when you cut right through it however, I think your point is 'I don't like Jim Hendry and envy the Card fans for their GM' without fairly analysing this subject matter.

 

for instance, this quip about Veres. no, Veres probably wasn't the main part of the trade, but he certainly was an integral part as teams tend not to take on the (at the time) huge contracts of failed players, like Kile was with Colorado, without getting something extra in return. you also fail to point out that the Cards sent Jiminez to Colorado, who promptly outperformed Veres for much cheaper. so did Jocketty give up nothing here?

 

you also point to the O's salary dump of Timlin. sure, they salary dumped, but the Cardinals took on a gigantic contract. two and a half years of what amounts to one of the biggest contracts ever given to a set up man. this is exactly what you say Jocketty doesn't do. so what if it was a trade v. a signing. further, Benes had nothing to do with it. Veres was and remained the Cardinals closer before and after Timlin was acquired.

 

didn't give up much to get Kline? only a 25 yo 3B who OPS'd .957 and .870 the two years before being traded. Tatis falling off a cliff helps your argument, but Tatis was one of the up and coming players in the game at the time (roids). also, Jocketty made out well in the trade with Atlanta, but JD Drew 'isn't much?'

 

you also started out this thread with a "besides Izzy." isn't that a huge "besides" in the context of this conversation? spending gigantic dollars at the time for a guy who was quite frankly terrible at converting save opportunities with his previous team?

 

but what is truly absurd about the arguments you are making is the capper of "the Cards did not go out and allocate a bunch of payroll" to build their bullpen. as I pointed out on page 3 of this thread, this may be true in 2006 and 2007, but overall, it's simply not true, due in large part to committing the sabr sin, allocating a huge contract to a closer, but also to a lesser extent paying guys like Veres 4.5 M per year.

 

all this while forgetting the smart/economical moves Hendry has made in the bullpen with the likes of Todd Van Poppel, Todd Worrell, Alan Benes, Mercker and Borowski/Dempster (before re-upping both of them).

 

 

like many discussions here, I understand some of the points that are being made, but the facts used just don't back up the arguments made. while it's not smart to throw long term contracts at relievers, few good bullpens are built on the cheap, and doing so is a huge crapshoot that can really sink a team.

 

fact is, relievers are generally unpredictable, but spending some money on the bullpen generally leads to a higher rate of predictability. Howry and Eyre don't really contradict this as Howry has always been a highly successful reliever with the exception of a year or two, and Eyre was always average to below average with the exception of the year before he signed with the Cubs. in a few years, Howry will probably be seen as a good signing, in the vein of acquiring a guy like Mike Timlin, while Eyre will be an easily predictable terrible signing.

 

but overall, when comparing to the Cardinals, you are confusing process and results. both teams have spent alot on their bullpens over the years. how the players were acquired and the allocation of that money amongst the various roles is irrelevant. the difference, as is the case with everything when comparing the two teams, is the results seen by spending that money. while Hendry has often compounded the bad results by resigning guys he shouldn't and for too long, your comparison with Jocketty and the Cards pen involves much glossing over facts and many outright falsehoods that don't stand up when looking at the actual acquisitions and players.