ESPN Article calls Cubs Mediocre

[CubinNY]

read again

 

 

1.) Pettitte has been lower than the average MLB ERA every season except for one.

2.) That's the MLB average - meaning all that time he spent in New York against DH's and facing good lineups with regularity are NOT accounted for.

3.) That's the MLB average - meaning it's NOT the average ERA for a starting pitcher in the league which is probably another quarter of a run higher.

 

I read it the first time, and you've never adressed what I wrote back to you. Do you read other peoples responses?

 

Where has Pettitte been pitching for the last three years? Are the next three years going to look more like his last three years or like his first three years?

 

Now factor in pay.

[CoolHandLuke]

read again

 

 

1.) Pettitte has been lower than the average MLB ERA every season except for one.

2.) That's the MLB average - meaning all that time he spent in New York against DH's and facing good lineups with regularity are NOT accounted for.

3.) That's the MLB average - meaning it's NOT the average ERA for a starting pitcher in the league which is probably another quarter of a run higher.

 

I read it the first time, and you've never adressed what I wrote back to you. Do you read other peoples responses?

 

Where has Pettitte been pitching for the last three years? Are the next three years going to look more like his last three years or like his first three years?

 

Now factor in pay.

 

He played in a bandbox.

 

Factor in long term commitment.

[CubinNY]

read again

 

 

1.) Pettitte has been lower than the average MLB ERA every season except for one.

2.) That's the MLB average - meaning all that time he spent in New York against DH's and facing good lineups with regularity are NOT accounted for.

3.) That's the MLB average - meaning it's NOT the average ERA for a starting pitcher in the league which is probably another quarter of a run higher.

 

I read it the first time, and you've never adressed what I wrote back to you. Do you read other peoples responses?

 

Where has Pettitte been pitching for the last three years? Are the next three years going to look more like his last three years or like his first three years?

 

Now factor in pay.

 

He played in a bandbox.

 

Factor in long term commitment.

 

MMP ranks right around Wrigley in terms of park factors, although they do flutuate from year to year. It's neither a hitter heaven nor a ptichers delight.

 

Long term commitement has nothing to do with this as he signed a 1 year contract. He's an average pitcher that is getting paid 16 million dollars.

[Coach C]

I'd think that somebody would figure out that Soriano > Pierre.

[CoolHandLuke]

read again

 

 

1.) Pettitte has been lower than the average MLB ERA every season except for one.

2.) That's the MLB average - meaning all that time he spent in New York against DH's and facing good lineups with regularity are NOT accounted for.

3.) That's the MLB average - meaning it's NOT the average ERA for a starting pitcher in the league which is probably another quarter of a run higher.

 

I read it the first time, and you've never adressed what I wrote back to you. Do you read other peoples responses?

 

Where has Pettitte been pitching for the last three years? Are the next three years going to look more like his last three years or like his first three years?

 

Now factor in pay.

 

He played in a bandbox.

 

Factor in long term commitment.

 

MMP ranks right around Wrigley in terms of park factors, although they do flutuate from year to year. It's neither a hitter heaven nor a ptichers delight.

 

Long term commitement has nothing to do with this as he signed a 1 year contract. He's an average pitcher that is getting paid 16 million dollars.

 

Didn't this start off with comparing Pettitte to our signings of Marquis and Lilly? I'd rather have Pettitte at one year and 16 mil than either of the guys we signed for multi-year deals.

[CubinNY]

read again

 

 

1.) Pettitte has been lower than the average MLB ERA every season except for one.

2.) That's the MLB average - meaning all that time he spent in New York against DH's and facing good lineups with regularity are NOT accounted for.

3.) That's the MLB average - meaning it's NOT the average ERA for a starting pitcher in the league which is probably another quarter of a run higher.

 

I read it the first time, and you've never adressed what I wrote back to you. Do you read other peoples responses?

 

Where has Pettitte been pitching for the last three years? Are the next three years going to look more like his last three years or like his first three years?

 

Now factor in pay.

 

He played in a bandbox.

 

Factor in long term commitment.

 

MMP ranks right around Wrigley in terms of park factors, although they do flutuate from year to year. It's neither a hitter heaven nor a ptichers delight.

 

Long term commitement has nothing to do with this as he signed a 1 year contract. He's an average pitcher that is getting paid 16 million dollars.

 

Didn't this start off with comparing Pettitte to our signings of Marquis and Lilly? I'd rather have Pettitte at one year and 16 mil than either of the guys we signed for multi-year deals.

 

No. I haven't compared the signings to anyone. In fact I said that Pettitte, Lilly, and Marquis have nothing to do with each other.

 

I simply stated Pettitte's contract was bad. The fact that Marquis or Lilly also have bad contracts is irrelevent to my point.

 

Mephastopoles pointed out that Pettitte has a career ERA+ of 119 which is above average. I said I don't care what his careeer ERA+ is and that judging a pitcher requires more than looking at ERA. Apperently, he didn't read my posts becuase he keeps saying the same things.

 

Pettitte is a little better than a league average pitcher at this point in his career and an injury risk. Paying him 16 million dollars for one year is not a good idea in my opinion.

[Mephistopheles]

Of course I read your response. YOU STILL COMPARED EVERYTHING TO LEAGUE AVERAGE FOR ALL PITCHERS. You did the exact same thing again.

[CoolHandLuke]

Ok, sorry then. I was just reading on the previous page when the guy you were arguing with was comparing him to Marquis/Lilly and that stuck in my head. It is a bad contract in a vacuum, yes, but when you have the payroll of the Yankees it's not bad, and I love the fact that you don't have the longterm, potentially crippling commitment.

[CubinNY]

Of course I read your response. YOU STILL COMPARED EVERYTHING TO LEAGUE AVERAGE FOR ALL PITCHERS. You did the exact same thing again.

 

I am not understanding you. Pettitte hasn't played in the AL for three years. Do you think his career numbers will hold up this year? Even at career numbers is he worth 16 million dollars?

 

I am sorry but at this point Pettite is around a league average pitcher.

[Coach C]

Question. I see that Hank White (Blanco) is on the list. I keep thinking, while he isn't any good offensively, isn't usually back-up catchers more of defensive players than offensive?

 

For some reason, I keep thinking that he's an improvement over Paul Bako, but by how much?

[Mephistopheles]

uh god so thick...

 

the AL comment may not be the point this time, but here's a hint. The national league average ERA for a pitcher in 2006 was 4.49. The national league average ERA for a starting pitcher was 4.65. The league average run factor for MMP has been a little above average but we can ignore it for now. Andy Pettitte posted a 4.20 ERA last season - about half a run better than a league average starting pitcher, yet he's just pretty average...

 

And the league average #2 starter last season was 4.04, and the league average #3 was 4.57. Keep in mind this was probably the worst season he's had since 1999 and it was a flukey one (higher HR rate allowed than anticipated, probably becaose of the Crawford Boxes).

 

To call him league average is foolish. He's in the top 30 percent of major league starters, maybe top 20 percent.

[CubinNY]

uh god so thick...

 

the AL comment may not be the point this time, but here's a hint. The national league average ERA for a pitcher in 2006 was 4.49. The national league average ERA for a starting pitcher was 4.65. The league average run factor for MMP has been a little above average but we can ignore it for now. Andy Pettitte posted a 4.20 ERA last season - about half a run better than a league average starting pitcher, yet he's just pretty average...

 

And the league average #2 starter last season was 4.04, and the league average #3 was 4.57. Keep in mind this was probably the worst season he's had since 1999 and it was a flukey one (higher HR rate allowed than anticipated, probably becaose of the Crawford Boxes).

 

To call him league average is foolish. He's in the top 30 percent of major league starters, maybe top 20 percent.

 

I'm thick? Look at the trends in the data.

 

Aside from 2005 when he blew up, Pettitte hasn't come close to his 119 ERA+ since 2002 when he reached age 30. Three out of the last four years his ERA+ has been a shade over 100 (league average) and trending downward. His WHIP is pretty decent and stable but nothing to write home about. His periphreials are pretty decent but again trending in the wrong direction. Notice I didn't say he was terrible, I said he was right around average and In my opinon he is.

 

But let's just say you are correct and I'm not, do you think he's worth $16 million this year given his age and health history?

[Mephistopheles]

for the five hundredth time, an ERA+ of 100 is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT LEAGUE AVERAGE FOR A STARTING PITCHER.

[CubinNY]

for the five hundredth time, an ERA+ of 100 is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT LEAGUE AVERAGE FOR A STARTING PITCHER.

 

Instead of having a coronary why don't you tell us what is.

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/statpages/glossary/#era+

[Mephistopheles]

it depends on the year, obviously. probably usually in the mid 90s, 94-96.

[Mephistopheles]

Dont link to me to the definition. I know exactly what it is. do i really have to tell you that if a belongs to b, it doesnt mean that b belongs to a?

 

thats league average including relievers and starters...not just starters. And ERAs are always higher for SPs so obviously the league average SP is going to have an ERA+ below 100

[CubinNY]

Dont link to me to the definition. I know exactly what it is. do i really have to tell you that if a belongs to b, it doesnt mean that b belongs to a?

 

thats league average including relievers and starters...not just starters. And ERAs are always higher for SPs so obviously the league average SP is going to have an ERA+ below 100

 

Who put the bee in your bonnett?

 

Again, just so I can see if you are reading or not.

 

Do you think Pettitte is worth $16 million next year given his age and health and recent trends?

[Mephistopheles]

to a team like the yankees, yes. to a team like the royals, no.

[soccer10k]

Hmmmm...

 

First base: Nomar Garciaparra, Dodgers (2 years, $18.5 million)

Why this was a bad contract: This is a great test to see if your GM read "Moneyball" or "The Winner Within." Do you sign the creaky comeback veteran (who still missed 40 games in his "injury-free" season) or play the rookie (James Loney) who tore it up in the bigs after hitting .380 in Triple-A? The difference in your decision: about $9 million per season.

 

I didn't know that hitting .284/.342/.901 with 4HR and 18RBI in 48 games is "tearing it up".

 

How are these numbers David Shoenfield?

 

.328/.412/.934 with 3HR 16RBI and 13SB in 53 games?

 

He says Loney's numbers were "tearing it up" in the bigs and says they should've avoided Garciaparra, but make no mention of Theriot's performance in the DeRosa discussion? Ignorance. Yeah, Loney is a highly touted prospect, but he didn't "tear it up" in the bigs.

 

A .901 OPS for a rookie is quite impressive. I realize Loney only got 102 AB's so we're talking a smaller sample size here but I would say Loney tore it up in the majors last year. There were only 30 players in the majors last year who posted a .900+ OPS last year. I know his OBP was about average but his SLG was great.

[soccer10k]

This article isn't even about the cubs. Its about the Free agent market and that trying to build a team purely on free agent signings is only going to give you a mediocre team that costs a lot.

 

I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to understand. It's a Page 2 article, poking fun at the GMs that through money around for all sorts of guys this offseason. It's not about the Cubs.

 

It's the comment that closes the article, which specifically calls out the Cubs.

 

Who cares? He only made that comment because the Cubs were the biggest spenders in the offseason. All the guy is saying is that it isn't easy to buy a championship. And he did it after ripping Kevin Malone for the insane contracts he gave out as GM of the Dodgers.

 

EDIT: Not to mention the Cubs did lose 96 games last year and going worst to first isn't exactly a common occurrence.

[Rob]

Holy crap, the Yankees are paying Andy Pettitte $16 million this year.

 

Now that is a bad contract.

 

Ok, I know I'm responding to this again, and I'll let you know why.

 

When you said "Now that is a bad contract," by nature, that seems to imply that you are naturally comparing his contract to other ones, obviously more sane ones. I took this to mean you meant in comparison to our contracts, seeing as how this is a Cubs' board.

 

Lilly and Marquis immediately jumped to my mind as having worse contracts than Pettitte, and I went on to illustrate the reasons why. Those reasons were production and the length of the contract, which are certainly sound reasons. Not one person here will argue Lilly or Marquis is better than Pettitte, and I doubt many would deny that one year contracts for pitchers are a good idea, especially considering the pitching depth coming up in our farm system.

 

At any rate, I find it hard to decide whether a contract is "good" or "bad" without a context applied to it.If Santana signed a contract this offseason for 5 million, it'd put the Pettitte signing in a certain context, and if Russ Ortiz got a 100 million dollar contract, it would do the same. Viewing things as "good" or "bad" cannot be done in a vaccuum, those terms are obviously meant to compare things to one another.

 

I was merely pointing out that in relation to many of the outlandish pitching contracts signed this offseason, the Pettitte one was certainly better than two of ours, and I'm sure many others that were signed. At that point, one can draw their own conclusions as to where it falls in the spectrum between "good" and "bad." In looking at this last offseaon, I'd say it falls between "average" and "good;" looking at all-time, I'd say it is probably "bad."