Todd Walker Wins Arbitration Hearing

[CubColtPacer]

I don't recall the timeline of the Barfield/Kouzmanoff trade, but Walker was in line for a starting gig in 2007. It's quite possible that the Padres would have picked up another 2b if Giles wasn't nontendered, but now they have a very expensive back up infielder. Very expensive at least in the eyes of the Padres front office.

 

Walker has been ridiculously underpaid. In his 3 seasons in Chicago, he never made more than 2.5m to be the everyday, top of the order hitting 2b.

 

Neifi Perez made 2.5m last year.

 

Well, at least one of those years was Todd's fault-in 2004, he decided to come to the Cubs as a backup rather than possibly be a starter somewhere else.

[BigbadB]

Well, at least one of those years was Todd's fault-in 2004, he decided to come to the Cubs as a backup rather than possibly be a starter somewhere else.

 

Agreed. He did do that. Just pointing out how underpaid he was for his production. Neifi Perez at 2.5m, Walker at 2.5m and Pierre at 5.5m. Who provides the most production per dollar of that group? Walker in a landslide.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

If Kelly Johnson fails in Atlanta, I could see Walker being traded there.

 

Also, if Weeks wrist fails to heal, I wonder if the Brewers might have some interest in Todd.

[CubColtPacer]

Well, at least one of those years was Todd's fault-in 2004, he decided to come to the Cubs as a backup rather than possibly be a starter somewhere else.

 

Agreed. He did do that. Just pointing out how underpaid he was for his production. Neifi Perez at 2.5m, Walker at 2.5m and Pierre at 5.5m. Who provides the most production per dollar of that group? Walker in a landslide.

 

That's a good point-but remember, Walker signed his deal before 2005, while Neifi was before 2006-also, Pierre was in arbitration which looks at completely different statistics then some teams do in free agency. Also, what position they played has to be taken into account. The average salary for an outfielder is 4.88 million, for a shortstop it's 4.06 million, and for second basemen it's 2.79 million.

 

Finally, if you would argue how underpaid he was by comparing him to those two, you assume that those two are being paid fairly-when they are likely both being overpaid for their production.

[Lefty]

Still making less than DeRosa.

[CubColtPacer]

Still making less than DeRosa.

 

DeRosa makes more and was a more attractive signing for several reasons. He had a much better season last year than Walker did, he has the flexibility to move positions to help the team at a later date (they are not resigned to playing him at 2B for 3 seasons), and he also was a class B free agent (because he was listed as an OF) while the other 2B were class A's.

 

Walker also has a problem because of his reported problems in the clubhouse. Now, I don't support trading a player just for that like what was being rumored last year, but when deciding between several similar second basemen on the market (and many of the 5-6 second basemen on the market this year were very similar in terms of overall worth) that issue could be a tiebreaker with some teams, and that could be why other people got jobs in free agency and Walker didn't.

[BigbadB]

The average salary for an outfielder is 4.88 million, for a shortstop it's 4.06 million, and for second basemen it's 2.79 million.

 

And what was the average salary for 2b's when you exclude the guys making league minimum, like Josh Barfield, Richie Weeks, Dan Uggla, Robinson Cano, Jorge Cantu, Chase Utley, Jose Lopez, Brandon Phillips, Jose Castillo and Aaron Hill.

 

You have to admit that this is a pretty extensive list of minimum payroll talent. 1/3 of the major league teams worth.

[CubColtPacer]

The average salary for an outfielder is 4.88 million, for a shortstop it's 4.06 million, and for second basemen it's 2.79 million.

 

And what was the average salary for 2b's when you exclude the guys making league minimum, like Josh Barfield, Richie Weeks, Dan Uggla, Robinson Cano, Jorge Cantu, Chase Utley, Jose Lopez, Brandon Phillips, Jose Castillo and Aaron Hill.

 

You have to admit that this is a pretty extensive list of minimum payroll talent. 1/3 of the major league teams worth.

 

Of course-that's part of the reason why other second baseman's salaries are being driven down. There are too many second basemen on the market, and so nobody is in desperate need to sign one of them because they are so similar. That's how people like Belliard put up a .725 OPS last year (which is less than 30 points behind Walker) and is making less than a million dollars next year. People are always looking for some of the other positions that are much more rare, but second basemen are usually a dime a dozen unless they are something special, which Walker is not.

[goonys evil twin]

The average salary for an outfielder is 4.88 million, for a shortstop it's 4.06 million, and for second basemen it's 2.79 million.

 

And what was the average salary for 2b's when you exclude the guys making league minimum, like Josh Barfield, Richie Weeks, Dan Uggla, Robinson Cano, Jorge Cantu, Chase Utley, Jose Lopez, Brandon Phillips, Jose Castillo and Aaron Hill.

 

You have to admit that this is a pretty extensive list of minimum payroll talent. 1/3 of the major league teams worth.

 

Chase Utley makes a heck of a lot more than the minimum.

 

Anyways, that just goes to show you how easy it's been for teams to find cheap 2B talent. No need to pay big for such modest production.

[BigbadB]

Chase Utley makes a heck of a lot more than the minimum.

 

Anyways, that just goes to show you how easy it's been for teams to find cheap 2B talent. No need to pay big for such modest production.

 

500K is a lot more than league minimum?

[goonys evil twin]

Chase Utley makes a heck of a lot more than the minimum.

 

Anyways, that just goes to show you how easy it's been for teams to find cheap 2B talent. No need to pay big for such modest production.

 

500K is a lot more than league minimum?

 

Chase Utley inf

7 years/$85M (2007-13)

 

signed extension 1/07

$2M signing bonus

07:$4.5M, 08:$7.5M, 09:$11M, 10:$15M, 11:$15M, 12:$15M, 13:$15M

[BigbadB]

Chase Utley makes a heck of a lot more than the minimum.

 

Anyways, that just goes to show you how easy it's been for teams to find cheap 2B talent. No need to pay big for such modest production.

 

500K is a lot more than league minimum?

 

Chase Utley inf

7 years/$85M (2007-13)

 

signed extension 1/07

$2M signing bonus

07:$4.5M, 08:$7.5M, 09:$11M, 10:$15M, 11:$15M, 12:$15M, 13:$15M

 

I'm guessing CubColtPacer was using 2006 to come up with his average salary base. 500K is what Utley made last year. What he'll make for the next 15 years has no bearing on this discussion.

[goonys evil twin]

Chase Utley makes a heck of a lot more than the minimum.

 

Anyways, that just goes to show you how easy it's been for teams to find cheap 2B talent. No need to pay big for such modest production.

 

500K is a lot more than league minimum?

 

Chase Utley inf

7 years/$85M (2007-13)

 

signed extension 1/07

$2M signing bonus

07:$4.5M, 08:$7.5M, 09:$11M, 10:$15M, 11:$15M, 12:$15M, 13:$15M

 

I'm guessing CubColtPacer was using 2006 to come up with his average salary base. 500K is what Utley made last year. What he'll make for the next 15 years has no bearing on this discussion.

 

He said "is" and "makes", that's present tense. I don't see how Utley's current salary has no baring on a discussion about current 2B salaries. What is the discussion anyway?

[CubColtPacer]

Chase Utley makes a heck of a lot more than the minimum.

 

Anyways, that just goes to show you how easy it's been for teams to find cheap 2B talent. No need to pay big for such modest production.

 

500K is a lot more than league minimum?

 

Chase Utley inf

7 years/$85M (2007-13)

 

signed extension 1/07

$2M signing bonus

07:$4.5M, 08:$7.5M, 09:$11M, 10:$15M, 11:$15M, 12:$15M, 13:$15M

 

I'm guessing CubColtPacer was using 2006 to come up with his average salary base. 500K is what Utley made last year. What he'll make for the next 15 years has no bearing on this discussion.

 

He said "is" and "makes", that's present tense. I don't see how Utley's current salary has no baring on a discussion about current 2B salaries. What is the discussion anyway?

 

I said is and makes because no one has calculated the numbers for 2007 yet. The discussion is if Todd Walker has been underpaid for his work the past few years, and if so, how much so.

[BigbadB]

The discussion was that Todd Walker's 2.5m salary in 2006 was very modest, and that he was underpaid. CCP then listed the average salaries of 2b's, SS and OF's to show how 2b is not as valuable as other positions. I then pointed out a list of all the minimum salary 2b's there were last year that must have been a huge drag on the overall average salary for 2b's.

 

I'm assuming the numbers he used were for 2006, since I originally started the topic of discussing Walker's 2006 salary. Walker will be making nearly 4m in 2007, and that hasn't been a part of the discussion, just as Utley's 2007 salary should not.

[goonys evil twin]

The discussion was that Todd Walker's 2.5m salary in 2006 was very modest, and that he was underpaid. CCP then listed the average salaries of 2b's, SS and OF's to show how 2b is not as valuable as other positions. I then pointed out a list of all the minimum salary 2b's there were last year that must have been a huge drag on the overall average salary for 2b's.

 

I'm assuming the numbers he used were for 2006, since I originally started the topic of discussing Walker's 2006 salary. Walker will be making nearly 4m in 2007, and that hasn't been a part of the discussion, just as Utley's 2007 salary should not.

 

Okay, now I'm more confused.

 

I think his 2006 salary was modest, I wouldn't call it underpaid. It was low because 2B don't make much unless they are really good, and Walker isn't really good. He's okay, but replacable. And the fact that so many 2B make the minimum just shows how easy it is to find 2B, and thus, why the prices are so low.

[CubColtPacer]

The discussion was that Todd Walker's 2.5m salary in 2006 was very modest, and that he was underpaid. CCP then listed the average salaries of 2b's, SS and OF's to show how 2b is not as valuable as other positions. I then pointed out a list of all the minimum salary 2b's there were last year that must have been a huge drag on the overall average salary for 2b's.

 

I'm assuming the numbers he used were for 2006, since I originally started the topic of discussing Walker's 2006 salary. Walker will be making nearly 4m in 2007, and that hasn't been a part of the discussion, just as Utley's 2007 salary should not.

 

Okay, now I'm more confused.

 

I think his 2006 salary was modest, I wouldn't call it underpaid. It was low because 2B don't make much unless they are really good, and Walker isn't really good. He's okay, but replacable. And the fact that so many 2B make the minimum just shows how easy it is to find 2B, and thus, why the prices are so low.

 

You're not confused, instead you just argued my point-thanks :D

[BigbadB]

If Kelly Johnson fails in Atlanta, I could see Walker being traded there.

 

Also, if Weeks wrist fails to heal, I wonder if the Brewers might have some interest in Todd.

 

I don't see Walker in Atlanta. Didn't Atlanta nontender Marcus Giles at a price somewhat close to what Walker will make?

 

The Braves have Pete Orr, Martin Prado and Willy Aybar to try out at 2b besides Johnson.

 

Don't the Brewers already have a couple of other guys who can play 2nd? Counsell and Graffanino?

Edited February 22, 2007 by BigbadB

[Amazing_Grace]

For the life of me I don't understand why Todd Walker hasn't wound up starting somewhere. He consistently puts up a .350 or above OBP, rarely strikes out, and is left-handed. Perhaps we see in Todd Walker the extent to which MLB overestimates the importance of defense at some positions. Honestly, I'd feel better with Todd Walker starting at 2b than Mark DeRosa, and as of now, DeRosa is making more money. Look at the career stats of these players and tell me why Walker isn't more worthy of a starting 2b job than DeRosa?

[BigbadB]

You're not confused, instead you just argued my point-thanks :D

 

I'm not winning this argument, so I give up. You win.

[CubColtPacer]

You're not confused, instead you just argued my point-thanks :D

 

I'm not winning this argument, so I give up. You win.

 

It's not a big deal anyway-I'll give up too, and we'll call it a draw.

[CubColtPacer]

For the life of me I don't understand why Todd Walker hasn't wound up starting somewhere. He consistently puts up a .350 or above OBP, rarely strikes out, and is left-handed. Perhaps we see in Todd Walker the extent to which MLB overestimates the importance of defense at some positions. Honestly, I'd feel better with Todd Walker starting at 2b than Mark DeRosa, and as of now, DeRosa is making more money. Look at the career stats of these players and tell me why Walker isn't more worthy of a starting 2b job than DeRosa?

 

Is Todd Walker better enough though to warrant giving up a draft pick though? When you consider that the Cubs would have to give up (I think a 3rd round pick) as well as other teams would have to give up their first or 2nd to get Walker, it makes more sense why they would want to go with other similarly productive options at 2B now and keep the pick. I know I'd rather have DeRosa and keep that high pick to try to rebuild the farm system.

[Amazing_Grace]

For the life of me I don't understand why Todd Walker hasn't wound up starting somewhere. He consistently puts up a .350 or above OBP, rarely strikes out, and is left-handed. Perhaps we see in Todd Walker the extent to which MLB overestimates the importance of defense at some positions. Honestly, I'd feel better with Todd Walker starting at 2b than Mark DeRosa, and as of now, DeRosa is making more money. Look at the career stats of these players and tell me why Walker isn't more worthy of a starting 2b job than DeRosa?

 

Is Todd Walker better enough though to warrant giving up a draft pick though? When you consider that the Cubs would have to give up (I think a 3rd round pick) as well as other teams would have to give up their first or 2nd to get Walker, it makes more sense why they would want to go with other similarly productive options at 2B now and keep the pick. I know I'd rather have DeRosa and keep that high pick to try to rebuild the farm system.

 

OK I don't get it. If the Cubs would have given up a pick to get Walker, why didn't they have to give up a pick to get DeRosa. They were both FA's right? Did the Rangers not offer him arbritration? I thought the pick only changed hands if the player declined arbritration. If you're asking me "should the Cubs have signed Walker if he declined San Diego's arbritration offer", then no, the difference between Walker and DeRosa isn't worth a draft pick. In any event, the Cubs didn't have to trade Walker to begin with. Not trading him wouldn't have involved any picks going anywhere.

[LeftCoastCubFan]

San Diego can still release him in spring training and pay 1/6 of the contract if they feel he is overpaid.

[CubColtPacer]

For the life of me I don't understand why Todd Walker hasn't wound up starting somewhere. He consistently puts up a .350 or above OBP, rarely strikes out, and is left-handed. Perhaps we see in Todd Walker the extent to which MLB overestimates the importance of defense at some positions. Honestly, I'd feel better with Todd Walker starting at 2b than Mark DeRosa, and as of now, DeRosa is making more money. Look at the career stats of these players and tell me why Walker isn't more worthy of a starting 2b job than DeRosa?

 

Is Todd Walker better enough though to warrant giving up a draft pick though? When you consider that the Cubs would have to give up (I think a 3rd round pick) as well as other teams would have to give up their first or 2nd to get Walker, it makes more sense why they would want to go with other similarly productive options at 2B now and keep the pick. I know I'd rather have DeRosa and keep that high pick to try to rebuild the farm system.

 

OK I don't get it. If the Cubs would have given up a pick to get Walker, why didn't they have to give up a pick to get DeRosa. They were both FA's right? Did the Rangers not offer him arbritration? I thought the pick only changed hands if the player declined arbritration. If you're asking me "should the Cubs have signed Walker if he declined San Diego's arbritration offer", then no, the difference between Walker and DeRosa isn't worth a draft pick. In any event, the Cubs didn't have to trade Walker to begin with. Not trading him wouldn't have involved any picks going anywhere.

 

Well, true, but by trading him they got a very intriguing prospect.

Walker was classified as a type A free agent as a 2B, so if somebody signed him like the Cubs they would have been forced to give the Padres a draft pick.

DeRosa qualified as a type B free agent because he was listed as an OF, and OF's numbers are much higher across the board than at 2B. With that, the Rangers get a supplemental pick for the Cubs signing him, but the Cubs didn't actually have to give up a pick for him.