Cubs sign Soriano

[Chocolate Milk]

Big spending does not equal championships. Ask the Mets, Yankees, Red Sox. They still have to be smart.

 

What a terrible argument. Last I checked the BoSox won a WS in 2004.

The Yankees have won a few in the past 10 years as well. The Mets could easily win it next season. No Big Spending does not equal championships, but it usually keeps you in contention year in and year out. Right now, as a Cubs fan, I'll certainlty take that.

Why is it a terrible arguement. those three team have one championship between them in the last six years. the yankees went on their championship run before they started the massive spending the have today. the mets have been spending big for years and haven't come close to a championship. how many championships did baltimore win in the 90's when they were grossly out-spending everyone? it's relevant.

 

Spending money doesn't keep you from winning. That's completely absurd. It will increase your chances of going to the playoffs and get you better players in the long run. Just because other teams who spend money haven't won the World Series in the last few years doesn't mean it's impossible to do so.

 

I didn't say that. Of course spending money WISELY increases your chances to win. Also, it can allow you to cover up your mistakes by spending more money. What I'm saying is, I'm not going to write off the massive amount of money going toward Soriano at ages 38 and 39.

 

I'm glad they made the move to get him, but I'm very worried about the long terms effect of the contract. Others aren't becuase they claim they say, "If it brings the Cubs a World Series, who cares?" If it does, yeah I agree. But I don't think they are even close at this point and I'm not going to just say "who cares" about 17 million dollars.

 

Sorry. Looks like I miss understood what you were saying, my bad.

 

I'm not as worried about the money as some are. Sori's contract is only cost prohibitive is the Cubs make it so. If the Cubs impose some sort of spending limit and refuse to go over it for any reason, then yes, obviously it will be a big deal. However, if the Cubs have decided to pay what it takes to improve the team, then it probably won't matter as much. I'm not sure what's going on at this point. This could just be a massive reach in the hopes one big player will fix everything or it could be a sign that the Cubs aren't going to let money get in the way of getting who they feel the team needs. I guess we'll find out this offseason as the Cubs still have many holes to fill. If they fill those holes with a patchwork of average and unremarkable players, then it'll look like Sori's contract is going to be an issue. If they go out and get Drew, for example, or a top of the line starter, then I won't worry about the contract as much.

 

It seems like a lot of people here are upset about the money due to some issue with fairness. He's not WORTH the money he's getting. Well, you are right, he probably isn't. Then again, I don't think players view the Cubs as a premier destination. Sometimes you have to overpay to get what you need. I'd rather have the Cubs doing something like this rather than sitting on their hands because they can't get the perfect deal.

 

If the last two years are option years, as has been widely speculated then the contract looks even better. I'm going to have to reserve judgement on the money issue. I'm more worried about how his performance will be. Will he be 2006 Soriano or will he be 2005 Soriano?

[Mark_R]

Now we need to get Igawa, trade some of the dead weight contracts (Izturis, Dempster, Eyre, Jock, and hopefully Rusch retires) so we free up some more money for legitimate upgrades at need positions like SS and get a starter or two in trade (Westbrook or someone else).

 

I'd be comfortable with a rotation of

 

Z

Hill

Westbrook

Igawa

Prior/Miller/Young guy

 

With a guy like Lugo at SS, we'd have the best offense in the NL, even if we were breaking in a guy like Pie in CF (he really becomes crucial to this team since it will need good, cheap, young players since we're spending a lot of money for a few players. Also for when Z breaks the bank.)

 

Get Pie in there now when we can have an offense good enough to hide him until he becomes a better overall player.

 

His D in CF is also much needed with two questionable corners surrounding CF.

[Derwood]

i'll take Soriano at $17 mil/year over Furcal at whatever he got last year

[FergieJ31]

Completely agree. As I said about .. er, 50 pages ago, Soriano is so overrated it's not funny. He's basically a slightly faster version Jock with a little more pop - a measly 0.049 SLG and 14 OPS+ points. The JJ 3/16 deal looks like a bargain right now by comparison.

 

Soriano and Jacque Jones are not similar players. Soriano is more similar to Aramis Ramirez than Jones. Soriano is not ideal. And he's a risky signing. But he's not just a faster Jones with a little more pop.

 

Career numbers, yes more similar to ARam, but looking at OPS last three years (even including Sor's career year last year): JJ 777, AS 847, ARam 930.

 

I exaggerated slightly calling him JJ with a little more pop. Sor is a decent ballplayer, but he IS similar to JJ in many respects. He gets on base at almost exactly the same rate as JJ, identical walk rate, much higher K rate and like JJ he's a butcher in the OF and also on the wrong side of 30.

 

This signing utterly sucks no matter how you slice it.

[wastra]

I never would have thought that I'd be the guy defending a signing of Soriano.

 

Hey, the guy is flawed. There is no question. He will probably have a few disappointing seasons in his 8 year stay in Chicago.

 

But if you're going from a $95m payroll to a $115m payroll, then it's not that hard to fit in an inflated contract for Soriano and still be good.

 

There's still plenty of room to improve the pitching staff, and get another bat.

 

It was around page 40 (premium), but I said it back there and I'll say it again: There are positives and negatives to Soriano, but we are a better offensive team right now than at any point in the last 2 seasons. If the payroll stays near the luxury tax threshold, his contract won't be as onerous as it would be with a $100m payroll. He's not going to be an on-base guy, but SLG% was a need and he will provide slugging.

 

Good sign at an inflated price is how I'm looking at it. There's still money and, more importantly, tradable assets with which to further improve the team.

 

I agree. He should be a GOOD player either way, but the worst scenario for the near future is that he's an overpaid good player- which is far better than overpaying for a bad player, as has been our style of late. He may not be a GREAT player, but he should be a nice improvement over what we have.

 

I'd rather pay $17m+ per year to Soriano than I would $3-4mm a year to a Neifi.

[Chocolate Milk]

I haven't read all 98 pages of this so pardon me if this has been brought up before:

 

For those complaining about still paying him $17 million when he's 38 years old, how do we know that in the 2014 market that won't be a bargain? At the rate salaries are increasing, backup catchers may be making $8 or $9 million a year by then (and superstars making $25million+).

 

This is a good point. Some of the contracts that seemed way out of line when they were signed, are looking better now. Player contracts are trending up so it might take some of the sting off this one, down the road.

[goonys evil twin]

This signing utterly sucks no matter how you slice it.

 

Well, I must be slicing it a different way, because I think it's decent.

 

USSoccer wrote:

Good sign at an inflated price is how I'm looking at it.

 

 

My beef is the years. I don't have much of a problem with the price.

 

I don't believe it's going to be straight up 8 years. There has to be some leeway with options that can shorten the deal. 8 guaranteed years would be a problem. But 5 with a possibility for a big buyout might not be.

[Wheelimus]

Right now we need to sign Drew for center, so that we can create inflated value in Jacque Jones.

 

Once Drew signs, that's it for rea power hitting outfielders on the market. There's Bonds who is utterly complicated. There's Carlos Lee who will be a DH before he knows it. There's Moises who is about to sign with the Mets. After that it's the also rans of Matthews Jr., Luis Gonzalez, etc.

 

If 2007 and 2008 Moises Alou are worth $8 million per year in this market, 2/12 of Jacque Jones is a freaking steal.

[neely crenshaw]

i'm sorry we haven't won in 100 years..i got give a crap about the long term effects of this contract!

 

i will happily trade a WS championship in the next few years for being crapppy again in 8....

 

we were the worst team in the NL last season how can a long contract makes us any worse?

[neely crenshaw]

also i would rather overpat for the player i really wanted than miss out and follow up with overpaying neifi,pierre,jones and izturis.

[soapy]

i'm sorry we haven't won in 100 years..i got give a crap about the long term effects of this contract!

 

i will happily trade a WS championship in the next few years for being crapppy again in 8....

we were the worst team in the NL last season how can a long contract makes us any worse?

 

Does spending $17 million on Soriano mean the Cubs will win a WS though?

 

I'm sorry, I'm just having trouble leting this go. It brings them closer, yes. But it's a pretty far cry from a sure thing that they would even make the playoffs with this team. More needs to be done.

 

Okay, I'll stop now.

[soapy]

also i would rather overpat for the player i really wanted than miss out and follow up with overpaying neifi,pierre,jones and izturis.

 

agreed.

[goonys evil twin]

i'm sorry we haven't won in 100 years..i got give a crap about the long term effects of this contract!

 

i will happily trade a WS championship in the next few years for being crapppy again in 8....

we were the worst team in the NL last season how can a long contract makes us any worse?

 

Does spending $17 million on Soriano mean the Cubs will win a WS though?

 

I'm sorry, I'm just having trouble leting this go. It brings them closer, yes. But it's a pretty far cry from a sure thing that they would even make the playoffs with this team. More needs to be done.

 

Okay, I'll stop now.

 

Obviously more needs to be done. If this was it, and there was no room for anything else, then it's a terrible signing. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

[10man]

who really cares about the long term effects of Soriano's contract??

the only long term effect i care about now is the 98 years without a championship!

I say spend the money and bring the top players in for a change.

[soapy]

i'm sorry we haven't won in 100 years..i got give a crap about the long term effects of this contract!

 

i will happily trade a WS championship in the next few years for being crapppy again in 8....

we were the worst team in the NL last season how can a long contract makes us any worse?

 

Does spending $17 million on Soriano mean the Cubs will win a WS though?

 

I'm sorry, I'm just having trouble leting this go. It brings them closer, yes. But it's a pretty far cry from a sure thing that they would even make the playoffs with this team. More needs to be done.

 

Okay, I'll stop now.

 

Obviously more needs to be done. If this was it, and there was no room for anything else, then it's a terrible signing. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

I guess I'm still skeptical.

[Mephistopheles]

i'll take Soriano at $17 mil/year over Furcal at whatever he got last year

 

 

Cliffnotes of pages 1-75 or so: That's a very stupid idea.

[Chocolate Milk]

i'm sorry we haven't won in 100 years..i got give a crap about the long term effects of this contract!

 

i will happily trade a WS championship in the next few years for being crapppy again in 8....

we were the worst team in the NL last season how can a long contract makes us any worse?

 

Does spending $17 million on Soriano mean the Cubs will win a WS though?

 

I'm sorry, I'm just having trouble leting this go. It brings them closer, yes. But it's a pretty far cry from a sure thing that they would even make the playoffs with this team. More needs to be done.

 

Okay, I'll stop now.

 

Obviously more needs to be done. If this was it, and there was no room for anything else, then it's a terrible signing. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

I guess I'm still skeptical.

 

It's hard to believe that the Cubs would offer this deal without understanding the long term impact of it. Hey, it's the Cubs though.

[FergieJ31]

i'm sorry we haven't won in 100 years..i got give a crap about the long term effects of this contract!

 

i will happily trade a WS championship in the next few years for being crapppy again in 8....

we were the worst team in the NL last season how can a long contract makes us any worse?

 

Does spending $17 million on Soriano mean the Cubs will win a WS though?

 

I'm sorry, I'm just having trouble leting this go. It brings them closer, yes. But it's a pretty far cry from a sure thing that they would even make the playoffs with this team. More needs to be done.

 

Okay, I'll stop now.

 

Obviously more needs to be done. If this was it, and there was no room for anything else, then it's a terrible signing. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

This is exactly why it is a terrible signing. More needs to be done, it seems we all agree, but now we have far less payroll flexibility for 2007 and beyond. Sor's money would have bought Drew *and* most of a Meche or Lilly contract. I would be shocked if Hendry didn't think he was done with the offense (save for signing a Lugo, maybe) and turn 100% of his attention to pitching.

[Wheelimus]

How would Soriano's money have bought Drew and a pitcher? All accounts have Drew wanting near what Soriano got (3/45 has been floated, I believe). While far fewer years, that's just a few million less per year than Soriano. No way you get anything worth getting pitching wise for that.

 

It might be truthful to say you could have gotten Drew and Jason Marquis for the same per year.

 

Of course, why not just get Drew too. I don't see the club even mentioning the word "payroll", so the sky may be the limit. 130 to 140 isn't out of the question.

[Danny82]

i'm sorry we haven't won in 100 years..i got give a crap about the long term effects of this contract!

 

i will happily trade a WS championship in the next few years for being crapppy again in 8....

we were the worst team in the NL last season how can a long contract makes us any worse?

 

Does spending $17 million on Soriano mean the Cubs will win a WS though?

 

I'm sorry, I'm just having trouble leting this go. It brings them closer, yes. But it's a pretty far cry from a sure thing that they would even make the playoffs with this team. More needs to be done.

 

Okay, I'll stop now.

 

Obviously more needs to be done. If this was it, and there was no room for anything else, then it's a terrible signing. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

This is exactly why it is a terrible signing. More needs to be done, it seems we all agree, but now we have far less payroll flexibility for 2007 and beyond. Sor's money would have bought Drew *and* most of a Meche or Lilly contract. I would be shocked if Hendry didn't think he was done with the offense (save for signing a Lugo, maybe) and turn 100% of his attention to pitching.

How can you call it a "terrible signing" until you see what else ends up happening?

[YearofDaCubs]

When you're as broken as the Cubs, you have to spend money to fix things. Waiting for the farm system to pan out hasn't proved a good strategy. Nor has signing second-tier free agents. And they're certainly not going to be able to trade their way to the top.

 

Right now (again... RIGHT NOW), spending money is their only avenue to improvement.

Agreed. Hendry got his man which is refreshing in a way. Now he has to work on solidifying the pitching staff. I just don't see us making too many moves on offense anymore though.

[Guest]

I don't believe it's going to be straight up 8 years. There has to be some leeway with options that can shorten the deal. 8 guaranteed years would be a problem. But 5 with a possibility for a big buyout might not be.

The way this is being reported I'm thinking its almost certainly eight full years, with the only option possibilities being player options. Baseball contract are almost exclusively reported based on guaranteed money, not the potential size of the contract. Until I hear differently, I'm going to assume that the Cubs will owe Soriano $136 million unless he walks away from some of it.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I haven't read all 98 pages of this so pardon me if this has been brought up before:

 

For those complaining about still paying him $17 million when he's 38 years old, how do we know that in the 2014 market that won't be a bargain? At the rate salaries are increasing, backup catchers may be making $8 or $9 million a year by then (and superstars making $25million+).

 

This is a good point. Some of the contracts that seemed way out of line when they were signed, are looking better now. Player contracts are trending up so it might take some of the sting off this one, down the road.

 

That's what people thought when Hampton, Giambi, Jeter, and A-Rod signed their contracts 5-7 years ago.

[Derwood]

I haven't read all 98 pages of this so pardon me if this has been brought up before:

 

For those complaining about still paying him $17 million when he's 38 years old, how do we know that in the 2014 market that won't be a bargain? At the rate salaries are increasing, backup catchers may be making $8 or $9 million a year by then (and superstars making $25million+).

 

This is a good point. Some of the contracts that seemed way out of line when they were signed, are looking better now. Player contracts are trending up so it might take some of the sting off this one, down the road.

 

That's what people thought when Hampton, Giambi, Jeter, and A-Rod signed their contracts 5-7 years ago.

 

and of those, A-Rod's isn't really that bad IMO

[Chocolate Milk]

I haven't read all 98 pages of this so pardon me if this has been brought up before:

 

For those complaining about still paying him $17 million when he's 38 years old, how do we know that in the 2014 market that won't be a bargain? At the rate salaries are increasing, backup catchers may be making $8 or $9 million a year by then (and superstars making $25million+).

 

This is a good point. Some of the contracts that seemed way out of line when they were signed, are looking better now. Player contracts are trending up so it might take some of the sting off this one, down the road.

 

That's what people thought when Hampton, Giambi, Jeter, and A-Rod signed their contracts 5-7 years ago.

 

It's just something to consider. Jeter, Giambi, and ARod are all making more than Sori will, as well.