Looking back, its sad that Dusty ruined Corey Patterson...

[kroth1342]

As we all know, CP saw a significant jump in production from 2002 (age 22) to the 2003 (age 23) seasons, going from a .678 to .840 OPS. He continued to produce in 2004, with a less impressive .772 OPS, but with his best walk rate of his career [OBP .054 higher than BA].

 

The downfall began there, as Dusty's strong push to keep CP as the leadoff hitter, a role his skillset CLEARLY WAS NOT meant for, began. We all know the disastrous 2005 season and its .602 OPS.

 

The point is, how badly would we love to have the a good defensive center fielder (13-22 FRAR) with an .800 OPS and 30-40 steals hitting in the 6 spot? Oh, we had one.

 

Just another reason to be thankful Dusty is gone.

[RockTheIvy]

While Dusty may deserve a lot of the blame, its not as if Corey used to walk a lot. Corey's partly to blame.

[KingCubsFan]

As we all know, CP saw a significant jump in production from 2002 (age 22) to the 2003 (age 23) seasons, going from a .678 to .840 OPS. He continued to produce in 2004, with a less impressive .772 OPS, but with his best walk rate of his career [OBP .054 higher than BA].

 

The downfall began there, as Dusty's strong push to keep CP as the leadoff hitter, a role his skillset CLEARLY WAS NOT meant for, began. We all know the disastrous 2005 season and its .602 OPS.

 

The point is, how badly would we love to have the a good defensive center fielder (13-22 FRAR) with an .800 OPS and 30-40 steals hitting in the 6 spot? Oh, we had one.

 

Just another reason to be thankful Dusty is gone.

Co-sign. Because he also destroyed our top two pitchers, Dusty's treatment of Corey seems to get overlooked. Another career destroyed.

[kroth1342]

While Dusty may deserve a lot of the blame, its not as if Corey used to walk a lot. Corey's partly to blame.

 

While that is true, that doesn't mean he didn't bring other useful skills to the table that could help the team. Batting him at the bottom of the order is a solution.

[KingCubsFan]

While Dusty may deserve a lot of the blame, its not as if Corey used to walk a lot. Corey's partly to blame.

Well, he had previous success without walking a lot. He may never have put up a .900 OPS, but he could have easily hit .280 with 25 hr's if left lower in the batting order.

[RockTheIvy]

While Dusty may deserve a lot of the blame, its not as if Corey used to walk a lot. Corey's partly to blame.

Well, he had previous success without walking a lot. He may never have put up a .900 OPS, but he could have easily hit .280 with 25 hr's if left lower in the batting order.

 

In '04 he hit .266/.320/.452 with 24 homers. He did all right under Dusty.

[Mizzou]

Let's not forget that he also ran Sammy Sosa and Steve Stone out of town.

[Sammy Sofa]

He made Sammy cork his bat, slide after getting beaned and leave the last game of 2004 early?

 

I don't view Sammy as the uber-villain some did and still do, but he didn't do himself any favors in some very key ways.

 

The Stone thing I think is a very scathing indictment of how lax his clubhouse is.

[Bruno7481]

Blame Dusty for lots of things, fine. Corey isn't one of his casualties though. He's not exactly setting the world on fire in Baltimore. I liked Corey, and wish him luck wherever he winds up.

 

I don't think there is any logic in placing this at Dusty's door though.

[illiniguy]

Blame Dusty for lots of things, fine. Corey isn't one of his casualties though. He's not exactly setting the world on fire in Baltimore. I liked Corey, and wish him luck wherever he winds up.

 

I don't think there is any logic in placing this at Dusty's door though.

No but, I would still rather have him batting 8th Furcal at SS, and the three pitchers we gave up for Slappy back.

[NCCubFan]

Much of the "credit" for Corey should go to Don Baylor. Because the Cubs were unexpected contenders in 2001, Baylor asked for Corey to be on the big league roster largely to help as a pinch runner when he clearly needed more time in the minors. I would have liked to have seen how good he would have become if he spent all of 2001 in the minors like he should have.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Much of the "credit" for Corey should go to Don Baylor. Because the Cubs were unexpected contenders in 2001, Baylor asked for Corey to be on the big league roster largely to help as a pinch runner when he clearly needed more time in the minors. I would have liked to have seen how good he would have become if he spent all of 2001 in the minors like he should have.

 

The entire Cubs org. shares the blame for getting Corey rushed. It was more than just Dusty Baker.

[TheDude]

Patterson deserves the bulk of the blame. The man simply could not carry what he did in practice and instruction into the batter's box and it became a mental block to his advancement. It's not as if he was uncoachable, but when he stepped up to bat, all the coaching was ignored.

 

The only way he was going to improve was to get a fresh start and clear out that mental block.

 

You can blame the organization for rushing him, but don't put his short-comings on Dusty and his staff.

[BeerHere]

Patterson deserves the bulk of the blame. The man simply could not carry what he did in practice and instruction into the batter's box and it became a mental block to his advancement. It's not as if he was uncoachable, but when he stepped up to bat, all the coaching was ignored.

 

The only way he was going to improve was to get a fresh start and clear out that mental block.

 

You can blame the organization for rushing him, but don't put his short-comings on Dusty and his staff.

 

Seconded

[KingCubsFan]

Patterson deserves the bulk of the blame. The man simply could not carry what he did in practice and instruction into the batter's box and it became a mental block to his advancement. It's not as if he was uncoachable, but when he stepped up to bat, all the coaching was ignored.

 

The only way he was going to improve was to get a fresh start and clear out that mental block.

 

You can blame the organization for rushing him, but don't put his short-comings on Dusty and his staff.

Except that Dusty and his staff tried to turn him into something he was not: a leadoff hitter. Sure, Corey was fast, but he was brought up in the minors as a middle-of-the order, power-type player. Corey never wanted to be a leadoff hitter; Baker and his staff forced it on him, and that's why he "could not carry what he did in practice and instruction into the batter's box." His lack of plate discipline may have never allowed him to reach his full potential, but he could still have been a very valuable player. Basically, Baker's staff had a potential 30/30 player in CF, and instead of trying to teach him to be more patient to bring out his natural abilities(not necessarily take walks, just not swinging at the first pitch at every at bat), they tried to completely alter his style and make him Lou Brock. It was a disservice to him, the Cubs and the fans. Corey deserves some blame, but the coaching staff (and Hendry to an extent) deserve more.

[TheDude]

Patterson deserves the bulk of the blame. The man simply could not carry what he did in practice and instruction into the batter's box and it became a mental block to his advancement. It's not as if he was uncoachable, but when he stepped up to bat, all the coaching was ignored.

 

The only way he was going to improve was to get a fresh start and clear out that mental block.

 

You can blame the organization for rushing him, but don't put his short-comings on Dusty and his staff.

Except that Dusty and his staff tried to turn him into something he was not: a leadoff hitter. Sure, Corey was fast, but he was brought up in the minors as a middle-of-the order, power-type player. Corey never wanted to be a leadoff hitter; Baker and his staff forced it on him, and that's why he "could not carry what he did in practice and instruction into the batter's box." His lack of plate discipline may have never allowed him to reach his full potential, but he could still have been a very valuable player. Basically, Baker's staff had a potential 30/30 player in CF, and instead of trying to teach him to be more patient to bring out his natural abilities(not necessarily take walks, just not swinging at the first pitch at every at bat), they tried to completely alter his style and make him Lou Brock. It was a disservice to him, the Cubs and the fans. Corey deserves some blame, but the coaching staff (and Hendry to an extent) deserve more.

 

Patterson doesn't have middle-of-the-order potential. It's disservice to him and the team to let him think he does and to play him there.

 

It wasn't the brightest idea to hit him leadoff, but he stunk out loud everywhere he was batting last year. After leadoff in 2005, his next highest total of ABs was in the 8-hole, and his numbers there were even worse.

 

You can blame whatever coaching staff you want, but if the player doesn't listen and can't adapt to any form of change, then the progress evaluation is on the player.

[ToupeeOnFire]

Patterson deserves the bulk of the blame. The man simply could not carry what he did in practice and instruction into the batter's box and it became a mental block to his advancement. It's not as if he was uncoachable, but when he stepped up to bat, all the coaching was ignored.

 

The only way he was going to improve was to get a fresh start and clear out that mental block.

You can blame the organization for rushing him, but don't put his short-comings on Dusty and his staff.

Except that Dusty and his staff tried to turn him into something he was not: a leadoff hitter. Sure, Corey was fast, but he was brought up in the minors as a middle-of-the order, power-type player. Corey never wanted to be a leadoff hitter; Baker and his staff forced it on him, and that's why he "could not carry what he did in practice and instruction into the batter's box." His lack of plate discipline may have never allowed him to reach his full potential, but he could still have been a very valuable player. Basically, Baker's staff had a potential 30/30 player in CF, and instead of trying to teach him to be more patient to bring out his natural abilities(not necessarily take walks, just not swinging at the first pitch at every at bat), they tried to completely alter his style and make him Lou Brock. It was a disservice to him, the Cubs and the fans. Corey deserves some blame, but the coaching staff (and Hendry to an extent) deserve more.

 

I agree. It wasn't so much moving Corey to lead-off that did him in, it was trying to change Corey into the Cubs' idea of a lead-off hitter. They've got it in their heads that plate discipline doesn't neccesarily mean being more patient and taking more walks, instead it means making contact and striking out less. By emphasizing contact, they basically told Corey to be even more aggresive. Instead of trying to take pitches and work counts, Corey swung away early to avoid deep counts.

[CuseCubFan69]

I think that CPatt could have had a Jaque Jones like career with speed. What I think contributed to his struggling is that he had too many voices telling him what to do and being the nice kid that he is he tried to change each time.

 

I can blame Baker for ruining my innocence and making me a frustrated, annoyed, pessimistic Cub fan. Granted, it's my fault for letting it happen but he and Mr. Hendry/MacPhail have driven me to the point of maddness. I used to be incredibly optimistic before then.

[TheDude]

I agree. It wasn't so much moving Corey to lead-off that did him in, it was trying to change Corey into the Cubs' idea of a lead-off hitter. They've got it in their heads that plate discipline doesn't neccesarily mean being more patient and taking more walks, instead it means making contact and striking out less. By emphasizing contact, they basically told Corey to be even more aggresive. Instead of trying to take pitches and work counts, Corey swung away early to avoid deep counts.

 

What you've said here doesn't make sense. we can all agree Paterson is an impatient hitter with a large strike zone. So what requires more change:

 

- Dusty asking him to be his version of a leadoff hitter

- Asking him to suddenly develop into a OBP count-working hitter.

 

Clearly the second requires a lot more change than the first. what you're asking of him would be far more destructive to his progress than what Dusty asked of him, IMO.

[katway]

There's only one person to blame for Corey's inconsistent play -- Corey Patterson. Just strikes me as one of those players with a great skill set that may never reach his potential because he just doesn't get it no matter who the coach or organization.

[ToupeeOnFire]

I agree. It wasn't so much moving Corey to lead-off that did him in, it was trying to change Corey into the Cubs' idea of a lead-off hitter. They've got it in their heads that plate discipline doesn't neccesarily mean being more patient and taking more walks, instead it means making contact and striking out less. By emphasizing contact, they basically told Corey to be even more aggresive. Instead of trying to take pitches and work counts, Corey swung away early to avoid deep counts.

 

What you've said here doesn't make sense. we can all agree Paterson is an impatient hitter with a large strike zone. So what requires more change:

 

- Dusty asking him to be his version of a leadoff hitter

- Asking him to suddenly develop into a OBP count-working hitter.

 

Clearly the second requires a lot more change than the first. what you're asking of him would be far more destructive to his progress than what Dusty asked of him, IMO.

While I think the Cubs should always be putting an emphasis on working the count and getting on base, I wasn't suggesting they should have tried to make wholesale changes with Patterson. From 2003 to 2004, his walk rate had improved. I suppose what I was hoping for in 2005 was to continue to see incremental improvements in his game as he aged and gained experience. Putting such a point of emphasis on cutting down strike outs was only going to make him be more aggressive and, even worse, shorten up his swing.

 

As it is, he is pretty much the same player now as he was in 2004 and I can't say I really miss him all that much.

[YearofDaCubs]

I don't like Baker but I won't blame him for Corey.

[KingCubsFan]

I agree. It wasn't so much moving Corey to lead-off that did him in, it was trying to change Corey into the Cubs' idea of a lead-off hitter. They've got it in their heads that plate discipline doesn't neccesarily mean being more patient and taking more walks, instead it means making contact and striking out less. By emphasizing contact, they basically told Corey to be even more aggresive. Instead of trying to take pitches and work counts, Corey swung away early to avoid deep counts.

 

What you've said here doesn't make sense. we can all agree Paterson is an impatient hitter with a large strike zone. So what requires more change:

 

- Dusty asking him to be his version of a leadoff hitter

- Asking him to suddenly develop into a OBP count-working hitter.

 

Clearly the second requires a lot more change than the first. what you're asking of him would be far more destructive to his progress than what Dusty asked of him, IMO.

Nobody's asking Patterson to become Bobby Abreu. He's just saying that Baker turned an impatient hitter into an extremely impatient hitter due to his desire to make him into a leadoff hitter, and it probably ruined his career. Look at 2005, when Patterson went down to AAA

Games: 24 BB: 8

In the Majors

Games: 126 BB:23

Baker's Boys must have clearly been doing something to Corey. I remember someone on this board had something in their profile about Corey's increasing walk rate every year. Well, it plummeted in 2005, and I think it had something to do with Clines and Baker's philosophy. Corey was starting to figure it out on his own, they should have just left him alone.

[Guest]

Patterson' future was tenuous at best. I'll say Baker didn't help any but I don't think we can assume corey was going to be a star anyway. and, he is still playing.

[Derwood]

They clearly didn't ruin him permanently.

 

In just 6 more AB's in 2006 (than 2005), he has:

 

- 27 more runs

- 30 more hits

- 3 more HR

- 19 more RBI

- 26 fewer K's

- 29 more SB's

- 63 more points in Avg

- 62 more points in OBP

- 98 more points in SLG

 

Overall, 2006 statline is .278/.316/.446, 16 HR, 53 RBI, 74 R, 44 SB. Not knocking the cover off the ball, but certainly a good rebound year