Ryan Theriot=Bench Player. Period.

[jmajew]

I know I"m jumping in late but I see Theriot being a David Eckstein type of player. And quite frankly if he is we have a 2 hitter for the next 10 years. He will never be a star but he will be above average to good in every aspect. Eckstein did not make it to the big time till he was 26 either. Some people reach their potential a bit later.

 

I have been an advocate of going out and trading for a 2b. But since the all-star break the cubs have had the 12 best offense in baseball. So I think we should keep the team the way it is currently constructed. Except if Pierre wants too much and too long go for Lofton and we need a platoon for Jones. Pierre, Theriot, DLee, Ramirez, Jones/Platoon, Murton, Barrett, Izturis. We should spend all of our money on starting pitching this offseason. Since teh All Star break we have allowed the 5th most runs in baseball.

Edited September 19, 2006 by jmajew

[goonys evil twin]

Stitch, you right.. you don't need the greatest SS defensively to win.. but you need DEFENSE and PITCHING to win a World Series. I can name you a ton of teams that didn't have a great offense that won a ring (the 1988 Dodgers and the 1990 Reds come to mind). I can name you a BOATLOAD of teams that had a great offense that didn't win the ring (as an Indians fan, I'll put the 1995 Indians, as one of many cases in point).

 

That's a nice little trick there.

 

I could also name you a BOATLOAD of teams that had a great pitching staff that didn't win the ring (2003 and 2004 Chicago Cubs, 2003 LA Dodgers, about 13 Atlanta Braves teams, several recent Oakland A's teams, the 2004 Twins, 2003 Mariners - great pitching, mediocre offense, fell hard in the playoffs).

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Your right, Boston didn't lead the AL in pitching that year.. but there staff got hot (really hot) at the right time. Four in a row over the Yankees and four more against St. Louis. The pitching was phenominal over that period.

 

In the 4 straight wins over the Yankees they averaged over 6 runs per game.

 

EDIT: Crappy math, point remains.

[fromthestretch]

If great pitching beats great hitting 99 times out 100, the Braves would have had more than one World Series title in the past 14 years.

[goonys evil twin]

Your right, Boston didn't lead the AL in pitching that year.. but there staff got hot (really hot) at the right time. Four in a row over the Yankees and four more against St. Louis. The pitching was phenominal over that period.

 

In the 4 straight wins over the Yankees they averaged over 6 runs per game.

 

EDIT: Crappy math, point remains.

 

In the series they gave up more than 6 per game.

[jaxxradio]

Stitch, there was a sportstalk show host in Cleveland by the name of Pete Franklin (God rest his soul). Pete used to scream at callers who thought that a team could win based on offense alone. He used to say that pitching was 90% of the game.

 

I'm not going to go that far, but pitching and defense make up about 75-80% of the game. No question that you need to score runs, but it's not nearly as important as having solid pitching and solid defense, especially up the middle.

 

In the 2006 Baseball America Prospect Handbook, (page 8) there is a really good overview of what scouts are looking for at each position. Under shortstop, hitting ranks third behind fielding and arm strength. In center, hitting ranks second behind fielding. The catcher position has hitting third behind fielding and arm strength. Surprisingly, second base has hitting in front of fielding. BTW, the five categories were Fielding, hitting, speed, power and arm strength.

[CuseCubFan69]

I just like the best players for that position. O_O had a plus minus thing thread and that's how I'd break down the players and what is already the context of the team. The Cubs need a hitter OBP guy in the worst way, a couple of them and another one dimensional defensive gem isn't going to help them get better IMO. Other teams might need a SS that can catch the ball and hit 260/320 and if that guy is the best available player to get at the time, you do it. This is why if the Cubs have 7 mashers and Izturis it would work out fine. But, a Cedeno Izturis Pierre middle is asking for another under 500 type season.

[goonys evil twin]

I'm not going to go that far, but pitching and defense make up about 75-80% of the game. No question that you need to score runs, but it's not nearly as important as having solid pitching and solid defense, especially up the middle.

 

It's not as important as having solid pitching, but it's nearly as important. And it's much more important than defense, no matter what the old-timers say.

[jaxxradio]

Goony, I'm not including the first three games of that series with the Yankees. I'm talking about the final eight games the Red Sox played (four against NY and four against St. Louis).

[goonys evil twin]

Goony, I'm not including the first three games of that series with the Yankees. I'm talking about the final eight games the Red Sox played (four against NY and four against St. Louis).

 

It helps to pick and choose when you are defending a wrong notion, but I like to look at the real world, where your cliches about "pitching winning every time, and defense winning championships" just doesn't hold up.

[Guest]

the team that scores more wins every time. its pretty obvious that offense is exactly as important as defense plus pitching.

[goonys evil twin]

Stitch, there was a sportstalk show host in Cleveland by the name of Pete Franklin (God rest his soul). Pete used to scream at callers who thought that a team could win based on offense alone. He used to say that pitching was 90% of the game.

 

Claiming that pitching is 90% of the game is almost as stupid as saying you can win on offense alone. And nobody here is saying you can win on offense alone.

 

I want pitching and offense, and I'd like at least average defense. But the marginal difference between the average defender and a great defender does not come anywhere close to erasing the difference between a bad hitter and even an average one. Furthermore, you really don't stand much of a chance of even making it to the majors by being a bad defender, so the differences are even more negligible. The guys who are here can field. A handful might hurt their team, but not nearly as the really bad hitters hurt their teams.

[jaxxradio]

Grass, that would be true if the Braves had great pitching, but they didn't.

 

Now before everyone freaks out on me. Hear me out. Pitching is more than throwing out a starter. A great pitching staff needs two or three solid starting pitchers, two solid set-up guys that create the bridge between the starter and the closer. Most importantly, you need to have a lights out closer.

 

Now back to the Braves and their great run. Did they have the starters? Absolutely. Did they have the set-up guys? They were below average in that department for most of their run. Did they have a Mariano Rivera, Eric Gagne, Trevor Hoffman type lights out closer? Hell no, not even close.

 

Bottom line is the starters were great but the bullpen was average at best. That wasn't a great pitching staff. It was good, but not great.

[Guest]

the other aspect of the discussion is that hitters are far more predictable than pitchers and less likely to get hurt. therefore, investing in a great offense is less of a risk than a great pitching staff. defense should be reasonably constant but as goony succinctly said, is a secondary trait.

[Guest]

Grass, that would be true if the Braves had great pitching, but they didn't.

 

Now before everyone freaks out on me. Hear me out. Pitching is more than throwing out a starter. A great pitching staff needs two or three solid starting pitchers, two solid set-up guys that create the bridge between the starter and the closer. Most importantly, you need to have a lights out closer.

 

Now back to the Braves and their great run. Did they have the starters? Absolutely. Did they have the set-up guys? They were below average in that department for most of their run. Did they have a Mariano Rivera, Eric Gagne, Trevor Hoffman type lights out closer? Hell no, not even close.

 

Bottom line is the starters were great but the bullpen was average at best. That wasn't a great pitching staff. It was good, but not great.

 

oh, we should start a separate thread for the closer discussion. I certainly agree with you that a great modern pitching staff has to have great relievers - and a manager that knows how to use them.

[jaxxradio]

Curse, it depends on the pitching staff you have.

 

Again, assuming the Cubs keep Ramirez at 3B, the infield of Lee, Theriot/Cedeno, Izturis and Ramirez will be one of the best defensively in the NL next year. Now, if you get a pitching staff that induces more groundballs than fly balls, this team will dramatically improve. Throw in a complete season from Lee and Ramirez (keep our fingers crossed) and another year of maturation from Murton, this team becomes a contender.

[fromthestretch]

Grass, that would be true if the Braves had great pitching, but they didn't.

 

Now before everyone freaks out on me. Hear me out. Pitching is more than throwing out a starter. A great pitching staff needs two or three solid starting pitchers, two solid set-up guys that create the bridge between the starter and the closer. Most importantly, you need to have a lights out closer.

 

Now back to the Braves and their great run. Did they have the starters? Absolutely. Did they have the set-up guys? They were below average in that department for most of their run. Did they have a Mariano Rivera, Eric Gagne, Trevor Hoffman type lights out closer? Hell no, not even close.

 

Bottom line is the starters were great but the bullpen was average at best. That wasn't a great pitching staff. It was good, but not great.

 

What are you talking about? They've gotten great performances from their bullpen.

 

Smoltz, Rocker, Lightenberg, Wohlers, McMichael, Mercker, Stanton, Howell, Bedrosian, Embree, Seanez, Remlinger, McGlinchy, Hammond, Holmes, Gryboski, and even Alfonseca, Juan Cruz, Terrell Wade and Jose Cabrera had very good years for them during that run.

 

Look at their 2002 bullpen and tell me that isn't a good bullpen.

[Bruno7481]

I'm not going to get in to what is most important, percentages, etc.

 

The game consists of 3 things, pitching, hitting, and defense.

 

The first day of my freshman year in college each player got a small, credit card sized laminated card to put in their locker, wallet, etc.

 

It reads:

 

"It's pitching, hitting, and defense that wins. Any two can win. All three make you unbeatable."

[Guest]

the braves finished 1st or 2nd in pitching every year from 1994-2002. in 1995 they managed to allow only 540 runs. to say they didn't have a great pitching staff is ridiculous.

[jaxxradio]

I'm not saying that offense doesn't have a place.. obviously it does.

 

I just think that you need above average pitching and defense more than you need above average hitting IMO. Having said that, Bruno you hit the nail on the head when you said a team is unbeatable if they have all three.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I'm not saying that offense doesn't have a place.. obviously it does.

 

I just think that you need above average pitching and defense more than you need above average hitting IMO. Having said that, Bruno you hit the nail on the head when you said a team is unbeatable if they have all three.

 

Again though, how much of "pitching and defense" is pitching, and how much is defense? If you think they're equal then that's fine, but if they're not it's deceiving to put them together.

[jaxxradio]

Stitch, just because a staff finishes in the top two in ERA doesn't make them a great pitching staff. When Cleveland had their four or five year run in the 90's, the pitching staff finished in the top two practically every year in the AL but that staff wasn't great by any stretch of the imagination.

 

A great staff has to be great all around. The Braves had great starters but that bullpen was average for the most part. Other than Wohlers and Rocker (and niether one of them were lights out), they didn't have a solid closer until Smoltz. The set-up guys were average at best. They certainly didn't have anybody like Scott Shields or Jeff Nelson (in his prime).

[jaxxradio]

Trans, assuming that the game is divided into three equal categories (pitching, offense and defense), I think pitching and defense are more important than pitching and offense or offense and defense.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Trans, assuming that the game is divided into three equal categories (pitching, offense and defense), I think pitching and defense are more important than pitching and offense or offense and defense.

 

Just for the sake of argument, let's split it into two categories. Scoring runs(offense) and preventing runs(pitching and defense). How much of preventing runs is pitching and how much is defense?

[Abe Frohman]

That is like splitting up the offense into "getting on base" and "scoring runs." Only the latter is clearly more important.