Cesar has a sore hamstring

[KingCubsFan]

gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove! gold glove!

 

Sarcasm or not, I'm in the camp of in any sport, defense wins championships.

Defense in football, basketball, soccer, etc. means preventing the other team from scoring. In baseball, that's overwhelmingly the task of the pitching staff, not the guys behind them. Defense in baseball doesn't compare to defense in other sports and is a relatively small factor in keeping the other team from crossing home.

 

exactly. defense (as in preventing the other team from scoring) is very important in baseball. but actual fielding makes up a very small % of defense.

Defense may not win championships, but it can certainly lose them. (See Gonzalez, Alex)

 

Every time someone points this out I'm going to point out AGonz's .980 OPS and 4HR's in the postseason, without which no one would ever remember the ground ball to SS.

 

Offense and pitching are so much more important that defense it's not even funny.

And every time someone points that out I'm going to, again, point out that defense can lose championships. You can say what you want, but the fact is that AGon blew a routine double play and cost us the World Series. Not Bartman. Especially at shortstop, defense is crucial at that time of the year. I don't really care what Gonzalez hit during the playoffs. If he hit .000 in the series, but made that play, he would have done his job because he wasn't an important part of our offense, but he WAS an important part of our defense, and he blew it. I don't remember any games hinging on Gonzalez's offensive exploits.

 

You can put just as much blame on Zambrano's Game 1 performance, the offense not showing up for Game 5, Wood's Game 7 performance, etc. It's not all about one play.

Well, I don't have to put any blame on Wood's Game 7 performance because if Gonzalez had made that play, there wouldn't have been a Game 7. The other things are simply part of the game. Zambrano didn't pitch particularly well in any playoff game, and there will be times when the offense gets shut down. These type of things are different from botching a routine play in the late innings of a playoff game. Even with those things accounted for, it is very likely we still would have made the World Series if Gonzalez had simply made a play he was supposed to make.

[Mizzou]

Well, I don't have to put any blame on Wood's Game 7 performance because if Gonzalez had made that play, there wouldn't have been a Game 7. The other things are simply part of the game. Zambrano didn't pitch particularly well in any playoff game, and there will be times when the offense gets shut down. These type of things are different from botching a routine play in the late innings of a playoff game. Even with those things accounted for, it is very likely we still would have made the World Series if Gonzalez had simply made a play he was supposed to make.

Bad starts and lack of offense are part of the game, but an error isn't?

[fromthestretch]

Well, I don't have to put any blame on Wood's Game 7 performance because if Gonzalez had made that play, there wouldn't have been a Game 7.

 

Whether or not there should have been a Game 7 is irrelevant. They had to play it, and Wood didn't perform. Using that logic, I could just as easily say that the Gonzalez error wouldn't have occurred had the Cubs swept the first four games.

 

The other things are simply part of the game. Zambrano didn't pitch particularly well in any playoff game, and there will be times when the offense gets shut down. These type of things are different from botching a routine play in the late innings of a playoff game. Even with those things accounted for, it is very likely we still would have made the World Series if Gonzalez had simply made a play he was supposed to make.

 

Errors are as much a part of the game as the offense not showing up and a pitcher having a bad game. Seriously, you can't hold Gonzalez any more accountable for the Cubs not reaching the series than the rest of that team.

[Warpticon]

Well, I don't have to put any blame on Wood's Game 7 performance because if Gonzalez had made that play, there wouldn't have been a Game 7. The other things are simply part of the game. Zambrano didn't pitch particularly well in any playoff game, and there will be times when the offense gets shut down. These type of things are different from botching a routine play in the late innings of a playoff game. Even with those things accounted for, it is very likely we still would have made the World Series if Gonzalez had simply made a play he was supposed to make.

Bad starts and lack of offense are part of the game, but an error isn't?

 

And it's not like we're talking about a guy who sucked with the glove, either.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

If Prior wasn't busy letting people get on base, Gonzo would have blown a DP chance. If Sosa would have hit 25 home runs in game 1, then we would have swept. Jeepers, this old argument is tired. If you build a team around great defense, you'll lose 4-0 every day.

[KingCubsFan]

Well, I don't have to put any blame on Wood's Game 7 performance because if Gonzalez had made that play, there wouldn't have been a Game 7. The other things are simply part of the game. Zambrano didn't pitch particularly well in any playoff game, and there will be times when the offense gets shut down. These type of things are different from botching a routine play in the late innings of a playoff game. Even with those things accounted for, it is very likely we still would have made the World Series if Gonzalez had simply made a play he was supposed to make.

Bad starts and lack of offense are part of the game, but an error isn't?

If you want to win a championship, than, no, an error like Gonzalez's (not saying every error) should not be part of the game. People can ridicule me all they want, and keep making absurd claims using "my" logic, but I think we all know that, had Gonzalez made that play, we would have most likely gone on to the world series. Therefore, I don't understand how people on this board seem to dismiss defense and claim that, because it's such a small part of the game, it should be completely ignored. There's a reason the Red Sox traded Nomar for Cabrera, and there's a reason the White Sox have had .200 hitting Juan Uribe as their shortstop the past two years: defense matters. Obviously, it doesn't mean as much as offense or pitching and if you build a team solely around defensive players like Izturis, you will most likely be a bad team. But to be a championship team, you need defense from critical positions along with good pitching and hitting.

[Banghart]

Whether or not there should have been a Game 7 is irrelevant. They had to play it, and Wood didn't perform. Using that logic, I could just as easily say that the Gonzalez error wouldn't have occurred had the Cubs swept the first four games.

This isn't that far fetch. If you recall Dusty allowed Mark Guthrie to face Mike Lowell in Game 1 because he was worried about the dangerous Lenny Harris coming off the bench. Lowell hit the game winning homerun of course, and the Cubs lost game one of the series.

 

As far as the importance of defense is concerned, we can all look back and find one defense gaffe that cost their teams games. However, over the course of a season what matters the most is pitching and hitting. The Cubs aren't very good at either right now. There appears like there is some talent for pitching to fix itself next year, while the offense continues to be getting worse and worse.

 

-Banghart

[Warpticon]

Well, I don't have to put any blame on Wood's Game 7 performance because if Gonzalez had made that play, there wouldn't have been a Game 7. The other things are simply part of the game. Zambrano didn't pitch particularly well in any playoff game, and there will be times when the offense gets shut down. These type of things are different from botching a routine play in the late innings of a playoff game. Even with those things accounted for, it is very likely we still would have made the World Series if Gonzalez had simply made a play he was supposed to make.

Bad starts and lack of offense are part of the game, but an error isn't?

If you want to win a championship, than, no, an error like Gonzalez's (not saying every error) should not be part of the game. People can ridicule me all they want, and keep making absurd claims using "my" logic, but I think we all know that, had Gonzalez made that play, we would have most likely gone on to the world series. Therefore, I don't understand how people on this board seem to dismiss defense and claim that, because it's such a small part of the game, it should be completely ignored. There's a reason the Red Sox traded Nomar for Cabrera, and there's a reason the White Sox have had .200 hitting Juan Uribe as their shortstop the past two years: defense matters. Obviously, it doesn't mean as much as offense or pitching and if you build a team solely around defensive players like Izturis, you will most likely be a bad team. But to be a championship team, you need defense from critical positions along with good pitching and hitting.

 

Show me one example of somebody saying the bolded. I'll bet you can't.

[USSoccer]

And every time someone points that out I'm going to, again, point out that defense can lose championships. You can say what you want, but the fact is that AGon blew a routine double play and cost us the World Series. Not Bartman. Especially at shortstop, defense is crucial at that time of the year. I don't really care what Gonzalez hit during the playoffs. If he hit .000 in the series, but made that play, he would have done his job because he wasn't an important part of our offense, but he WAS an important part of our defense, and he blew it. I don't remember any games hinging on Gonzalez's offensive exploits.

 

#1, AGonz had game winning hits all throughout the early part of 2003. We won that division by 1 game. If he doesn't come through, 1 time, we may not even go to the playoffs. Furthermore, he had the game winning RBI in Game 6 of the LDS.

 

#2: I'm going to list some things that were as great, or greater factors to us not advancing that AGonz's error:

 

-Zambrano blowing a 4-0 lead in Game 1.

-Baker choosing Guthrie/Lowell over Alfonsenca/Harris in Game 1.

-Prior throwing 2 uneccesary innings in a game 2 blowout.

-In the 5th or 6th inning of Game 5, Ramirez hit a ball barely foul that would have been a long home run in a 0-0 game. Had we scored first in that game, there is a high probability we win Game 5.

-Prior not being pulled after 7 innings in Game 6.

-Prior not being pulled after the Gonzalez error in Game 6.

-Farnsworth being called in to intentionally walk a hitter in thr 8th inning of Game 6.

-Baker not pulling Wood during or after the 5th inning in Game 7.

-Baker not using Matt Clement in Game 7.

-Baker going to Dave Veres in a 7-5 game with 2 on in the 6th inning of Game 7.

 

Our pennant was lost for many different reasons, and to be fair, Gonzalez's error is one of many opportunities we had to put Florida away in 2003. However, Gonzalez's error is not some shining example of why SS defense is critical to winning a championship. StL Louis went to a WS with David Eckstein as their SS, and Anaheim won one with Eckstein as their SS. David Eckstein is a completely crap SS. You can trot Uribe out as an example all you want, but the White Sox's pitching won them their championship. You can bring up Nomar for Cabrera, but the fact that the Red Sox had a ridiculous offense had a ton more to do with their title than Cabrera's glove did.

[Warpticon]

You can bring up Nomar for Cabrera, but the fact that the Red Sox had a ridiculous offense had a ton more to do with their title than Cabrera's glove did.

 

I said it before, and I'll say it again. Those same champion Red Sox were a few innings from getting swept in the ALCS. The previous year's Red Sox were a bad Little decision and an Aaron Boone homer away from going to the WS. If you tell me the difference between those situations was Orlando freaking Cabrera, I cannot in any way take you seriously.

[CubColtPacer]

You can bring up Nomar for Cabrera, but the fact that the Red Sox had a ridiculous offense had a ton more to do with their title than Cabrera's glove did.

 

I said it before, and I'll say it again. Those same champion Red Sox were a few innings from getting swept in the ALCS. The previous year's Red Sox were a bad Little decision and an Aaron Boone homer away from going to the WS. If you tell me the difference between those situations was Orlando freaking Cabrera, I cannot in any way take you seriously.

 

Exactly. The Red Sox losing the offense of Nomar to pick up the defense of Cabrera might not have hurt their title chances, but it wasn't the championship move that propelled them over the top either. I always wonder about some fans who say they have to rebuild their team after a loss like that (the Red Sox losing to the Yankees in the ALCS, for example). A bounce here or a bounce there puts them into the WS-you just have to put out a team that is capable of winning it, and sometimes hope that certain playoff situations go your way instead of the opponents in order to win.