Bruce on Z's Game Last Night

[Laura]

Bruce Miles / The Daily Herald[/url]"] Hypothetical question, Cubs fans: If your team had made it to the World Series in 2003, would it have been worth it, considering the abuse the pitching arms of Kerry Wood and Mark Prior took?

 

Second question: Was it really necessary for staff “horse” Carlos Zambrano to throw 121 pitches Monday night for a team going nowhere? ...

 

As far as the pitch count goes, Baker appeared to have no qualms about running it up.

 

“He was still dealing,” Baker said. “He was still throwing the ball good. We had kind of a long inning (in the top half), and he started to tighten up a little bit. I asked if him if he was OK, and he said yeah. After he walked the first guy, we got the bullpen ready. He got a guy out who’s been hitting good all day in Scott.

 

“It’s the furthest Z’s gone all year long, but it’s hard to take him out when he’s throwing like that.”

 

Zambrano (13-5, 3.38 ERA) entered the game leading the National League in strikeouts and walks. He also led the majors in total pitches thrown and average number of pitches per game at 111.68. Monday marked the 26th time in 26 starts Zambrano hit the century mark and the seventh time he surpassed 120.

 

“I felt strong the whole game,” he said. “In the seventh, eighth inning, I was more worried about getting that first hitter out. I was kind of too perfect.”

[Schwarber Fan]

“He was still throwing the ball good. We had kind of a long inning (in the top half), and he started to tighten up a little bit. I asked if him if he was OK, and he said yeah.

 

Z will throw 400 pitches and say he's OK

[Banedon]

Anyone want to be that Baker doesn't want to have the first team ever to not have a complete game in a season, so he's going to push Z to get one...

[CuseCubFan69]

Anyone want to be that Baker doesn't want to have the first team ever to not have a complete game in a season, so he's going to push Z to get one...

 

But not having a complete game will give Baker just another excuse on why the team failed. Also, it will prove (in Bakers mind) that he doesn't push his pitchers to the limit. I see no reason why Speir wasn't named manager at the All-Star break.

[C.C.]

Bruce Miles / The Daily Herald[/url]"] Hypothetical question, Cubs fans: If your team had made it to the World Series in 2003, would it have been worth it, considering the abuse the pitching arms of Kerry Wood and Mark Prior took?

 

Second question: Was it really necessary for staff “horse” Carlos Zambrano to throw 121 pitches Monday night for a team going nowhere? ...

 

As far as the pitch count goes, Baker appeared to have no qualms about running it up.

 

“He was still dealing,” Baker said. “He was still throwing the ball good. We had kind of a long inning (in the top half), and he started to tighten up a little bit. I asked if him if he was OK, and he said yeah. After he walked the first guy, we got the bullpen ready. He got a guy out who’s been hitting good all day in Scott.

 

“It’s the furthest Z’s gone all year long, but it’s hard to take him out when he’s throwing like that.”

 

Zambrano (13-5, 3.38 ERA) entered the game leading the National League in strikeouts and walks. He also led the majors in total pitches thrown and average number of pitches per game at 111.68. Monday marked the 26th time in 26 starts Zambrano hit the century mark and the seventh time he surpassed 120.

 

“I felt strong the whole game,” he said. “In the seventh, eighth inning, I was more worried about getting that first hitter out. I was kind of too perfect.”

 

I've never been a huge pitch count guy, but that was just stupid of Dusty. What was the point?

[erik316wttn]

Bruce Miles / The Daily Herald[/url]"] Hypothetical question, Cubs fans: If your team had made it to the World Series in 2003, would it have been worth it, considering the abuse the pitching arms of Kerry Wood and Mark Prior took?

 

Second question: Was it really necessary for staff “horse” Carlos Zambrano to throw 121 pitches Monday night for a team going nowhere? ...

 

As far as the pitch count goes, Baker appeared to have no qualms about running it up.

 

“He was still dealing,” Baker said. “He was still throwing the ball good. We had kind of a long inning (in the top half), and he started to tighten up a little bit. I asked if him if he was OK, and he said yeah. After he walked the first guy, we got the bullpen ready. He got a guy out who’s been hitting good all day in Scott.

 

“It’s the furthest Z’s gone all year long, but it’s hard to take him out when he’s throwing like that.”

 

Zambrano (13-5, 3.38 ERA) entered the game leading the National League in strikeouts and walks. He also led the majors in total pitches thrown and average number of pitches per game at 111.68. Monday marked the 26th time in 26 starts Zambrano hit the century mark and the seventh time he surpassed 120.

 

“I felt strong the whole game,” he said. “In the seventh, eighth inning, I was more worried about getting that first hitter out. I was kind of too perfect.”

 

I've never been a huge pitch count guy, but that was just stupid of Dusty. What was the point?

 

Dusty always pulls crap like this. I remember sometime in April of '04 in a game in Pittsburgh when the Cubs were winning in a laugher, and Z was in until the 8th I think up in the 120+ pitch count range, when he could have been taken out 2 innings earlier and the Cubs would have been fine. That still makes me mad when I think about it.

[goonys evil twin]

I hope to hell Zambrano doesn't turn into Livan Hernandez in a couple years.

[CuseCubFan69]

I hope to hell Zambrano doesn't turn into Livan Hernandez in a couple years.

 

He'll be pitching for the Yankees by then.

[abuck1220]

everybody complained about the overuse of prior and wood in '03 and they turned out fine. obviously everyone is over-reacting.

[C.C.]

everybody complained about the overuse of prior and wood in '03 and they turned out fine. obviously everyone is over-reacting.

 

But at least they were playing for something. Hell, if we have shot at a World Series I can care less, just win.

[TheDude]

everybody complained about the overuse of prior and wood in '03 and they turned out fine. obviously everyone is over-reacting.

 

Everyone is over-reacting. 120 pitches for Zambrano is not a big deal. 120 pitches for Wood is a big deal.

 

This idea of a fixed pitch count ceiling for all pitchers without regard for the specific pitcher is silly.

[C.C.]

everybody complained about the overuse of prior and wood in '03 and they turned out fine. obviously everyone is over-reacting.

 

Everyone is over-reacting. 120 pitches for Zambrano is not a big deal. 120 pitches for Wood is a big deal.

 

This idea of a fixed pitch count ceiling for all pitchers without regard for the specific pitcher is silly.

 

This is going to open a can of worms...As it always does.

[goonys evil twin]

everybody complained about the overuse of prior and wood in '03 and they turned out fine. obviously everyone is over-reacting.

 

Everyone is over-reacting. 120 pitches for Zambrano is not a big deal. 120 pitches for Wood is a big deal.

 

This idea of a fixed pitch count ceiling for all pitchers without regard for the specific pitcher is silly.

 

The idea that Dusty's treatment of Zambrano is fine is what is silly.

[stitchface]

everybody complained about the overuse of prior and wood in '03 and they turned out fine. obviously everyone is over-reacting.

 

Everyone is over-reacting. 120 pitches for Zambrano is not a big deal. 120 pitches for Wood is a big deal.

 

This idea of a fixed pitch count ceiling for all pitchers without regard for the specific pitcher is silly.

 

Did you miss the part about him "tightening up between innings?" This is incredibly stupid whether you believe in pitch counts or not. why would you risk your lone remaining ace in a meaningless game? I find your defense of baker shocking.

[abuck1220]

i was being sarcastic, by the way.

[Banedon]

everybody complained about the overuse of prior and wood in '03 and they turned out fine. obviously everyone is over-reacting.

 

Everyone is over-reacting. 120 pitches for Zambrano is not a big deal. 120 pitches for Wood is a big deal.

 

This idea of a fixed pitch count ceiling for all pitchers without regard for the specific pitcher is silly.

 

Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. But there's absolutely zero reason to take the chance at the point in a terrible season. None.

[C.C.]

everybody complained about the overuse of prior and wood in '03 and they turned out fine. obviously everyone is over-reacting.

 

Everyone is over-reacting. 120 pitches for Zambrano is not a big deal. 120 pitches for Wood is a big deal.

 

This idea of a fixed pitch count ceiling for all pitchers without regard for the specific pitcher is silly.

 

Did you miss the part about him "tightening up between innings?" This is incredibly stupid whether you believe in pitch counts or not. why would you risk your lone remaining ace in a meaningless game? I find your defense of baker shocking.

 

That's what got me pissed off! The pitch count thing can be debated for years with no true answer, but if you only star pitcher is telling you he's "Tightenting" take him out and pronto!

[Tracer Bullet]

everybody complained about the overuse of prior and wood in '03 and they turned out fine. obviously everyone is over-reacting.

 

Everyone is over-reacting. 120 pitches for Zambrano is not a big deal. 120 pitches for Wood is a big deal.

 

This idea of a fixed pitch count ceiling for all pitchers without regard for the specific pitcher is silly.

 

The problem with this analysis is its complete hindsight. No one knew how Prior would handle his work load in '03 (though we had a pretty good idea). No one knew the first time through (in '98 or whenever) how Wood would handle his high pitch counts, but by 2003 Dusty should have known better than to let him throw that many pitches that many times.

 

Is Z different? Is he one of the few that can throw 120 pitches routinely w/o doing harm to his body? Maybe, but the fact that he is (or says he is) ok right now doesn't mean much. If he starts 30+ times next year and the year after, then we'll know a little more. At this point, it just looks like a huge risk with absolutely no benefit for the team.

 

And I'm not calling for fixed pitch counts (and I haven't seen anyone write this in this particular thread). But 120+ pitches for a team as far out of the race as we are, in August, is indefensible. You could at least make something of a legit defense if we were in a race for the playoffs, but this team has nothing to play for but pride. Pride isn't worth risking long term harm to one of the best pitchers in the league.

[UMFan83]

Nothing regarding Baker and pitch counts will phase me after he let Prior throw over 120 pitches with a 12-3 lead in Game 2 of the 2003 NLCS

[goonys evil twin]

You could at least make something of a legit defense if we were in a race for the playoffs, but this team has nothing to play for but pride. Pride isn't worth risking long term harm to one of the best pitchers in the league.

 

Pride has been the downfall of more than a few humans throughout history.

[hardcorecubfan]

everybody complained about the overuse of prior and wood in '03 and they turned out fine. obviously everyone is over-reacting.

 

Everyone is over-reacting. 120 pitches for Zambrano is not a big deal. 120 pitches for Wood is a big deal.

 

This idea of a fixed pitch count ceiling for all pitchers without regard for the specific pitcher is silly.

 

Every once in a while it is good to push to build endurance, each pitcher should be taken as a completly different creature. Not agreeing with Dusty, but every once in a while you have to give those guys in the pen a rest. I was starting to get dicouraged seeing BP come in every 6th inning.

 

this would suck if Z went to the carribean league after season and pitch. Then I would worry.

[goonys evil twin]

everybody complained about the overuse of prior and wood in '03 and they turned out fine. obviously everyone is over-reacting.

 

Everyone is over-reacting. 120 pitches for Zambrano is not a big deal. 120 pitches for Wood is a big deal.

 

This idea of a fixed pitch count ceiling for all pitchers without regard for the specific pitcher is silly.

 

Every once in a while it is good to push to build endurance, each pitcher should be taken as a completly different creature. Not agreeing with Dusty, but every once in a while you have to give those guys in the pen a rest. I was starting to get dicouraged seeing BP come in every 6th inning.

 

this would suck if Z went to the carribean league after season and pitch. Then I would worry.

 

If this was an "every once in a while" situation, then you'd have a point. But it happens every damn time, not every once in a while.

[cheapseats]

everybody complained about the overuse of prior and wood in '03 and they turned out fine. obviously everyone is over-reacting.

 

Everyone is over-reacting. 120 pitches for Zambrano is not a big deal. 120 pitches for Wood is a big deal.

 

This idea of a fixed pitch count ceiling for all pitchers without regard for the specific pitcher is silly.

 

Were you watching the game last night? He had lost his mechanics in the 7th, and Dusty trotted him out for the 8th.

 

That's what gets pitchers hurt.

[CubColtPacer]

everybody complained about the overuse of prior and wood in '03 and they turned out fine. obviously everyone is over-reacting.

 

Everyone is over-reacting. 120 pitches for Zambrano is not a big deal. 120 pitches for Wood is a big deal.

 

This idea of a fixed pitch count ceiling for all pitchers without regard for the specific pitcher is silly.

 

Were you watching the game last night? He had lost his mechanics in the 7th, and Dusty trotted him out for the 8th.

 

That's what gets pitchers hurt.

 

Yup-I wasn't all that concerned about him going out for the 7th, but it just didn't make much sense for him to go out for the 8th-especially because what would have happened if the first batter had fouled 6 pitches off and struck out? They wouldn't have removed him, and his pitch count would have ballooned-there was no margin for error in the 8th, and therefore no reason to send him out again.

[RynoRules]

Someone please explain this to me b/c I can't figure it out:

 

How come, in days past, teams were using four-man rotations and had several "horse" pitchers who started over 30 games a year and made it through well over 200 innings? Why is this such a rare commodity over the last 15 years or so? How come our strong, young pitchers seem incapable of maintaining such a pace without significant injury (excepting Z, of course)?

 

Take Rick Reuschel, for example:

 

Reuschel's career stats

 

Not an HOFer, but a guy pitching in the 70's and 80's who started well over 30 games per season and went over 200 innings well into his early forties.

 

By contrast, it would seem that Wood and Prior are at least as talented as Reuschel (at least), yet they cannot keep themseleves together. Pitchers seem to have greater advantages in several aspects as compared to their fellows who pitched in preceeding eras, including, but not limited to, technology associated with analyzing technique and stats, advanced medicine, better conditioning, etc. How do we explan this?

 

I thought of a few more guys we can use as examples of the durable pitcher from bygone eras (I am purposefully excluding knuckleballers, BTW):

 

Warren Spahn

 

Bob Welch

 

Don Sutton

 

Burt Hooton (he's on the lower end of this scale, but had 10 straight years over 200 innings)

 

EDIT: Actually, it was 9 of 10 years, I think.

Edited August 15, 2006 by RynoRules