Would you rather have Izturis or Cedeno??

[forbez18]

If you had to have one starting at short stop for the Chicago Cubs next year who would it be between Izturiz and Cedeno?

 

Cedeno in young and has potential, not a great fielder with almost a year under his belt and a line of OBP .279 SLG .338 AVG .254. Do you think he will develop into a better player?

 

Izturis is still younger but may not have as much potential. He is a speed guy that can cause some trouble on the base path. He is a great fielder with a gold glove and only a year off from being a all-star, but he had surgery and may be losing something. He has a carrer line of OBP .295 SLG .340 AVG .261.

 

Is the other good enough to start at second? What would be your ideal scenario, and can the Cubs win with your scenario??

[baseball7897]

Izturis to me is a better option. At the SS position, you need a solid glove. That is the most important spot on the infield. Cedeno has probably more range than Iztruis, but Cedeno will sometimes not make the routine play. Izturis will make the routine play, and the occasional outstanding play. Iztruis is not that fast. I think he is a good baserunner. He knows when to run, and when not to. If this was my team I would keep Izturis, and I would try to deal Cedeno, and others to Baltimore for Tejeda.

[USSoccer]

Izturis to me is a better option. At the SS position, you need a solid glove. That is the most important spot on the infield. Cedeno has probably more range than Iztruis, but Cedeno will sometimes not make the routine play. Izturis will make the routine play, and the occasional outstanding play. Iztruis is not that fast. I think he is a good baserunner. He knows when to run, and when not to. If this was my team I would keep Izturis, and I would try to deal Cedeno, and others to Baltimore for Tejeda.

 

 

Point by point, bolded:

 

-If you're basing your desire to have Izturis on the fact that you need a good glove at SS, why trade for Tejada? He wouldn't play 3B for Anaheim in a pennant race. He's not going to move to 2B for Cesar Izturis in Chicago. If Izturis moves to 2B, what does his glove at SS matter?

 

-Cedeno will sometimes not make the routine play based on what?

 

-The third bolded bit makes you sound like Joe Morgan. He's not fast, but you think he's a good baserunner? Based on what?

 

-Knowing when to run is waaaaay low on the list of qualities you want in a ballplayer.

 

-Again, why trade the cheap guy who would be willing to move to 2B (which you've already implied is the easier defensive position) in favor of the expensive guy who doesn't really hit better than the cheap guy, and only has an advantage as long as he plays SS, which, in your Tejada scenario, he wouldn't?

 

If the Cubs wanted to trade for Tejada, the only scenario where aquiring Izturis makes sense is if the Cubs flip Izturis to Baltimore and move Cedeno to 2B. I can't see us having enough to land Tejada in any case, and I don't know why Baltimore would want Izturis. Keeping Izturing AND dealing for Tejada makes little sense financially and defensively.

[cheapseats]

I'd honestly rather have Neifi Perez than Izturis.

 

Although he was terrible with the bat last year and shouldn't be starting on a team that's dead last in runs scored, Neifi's glove was very, very good last year, and he has been very good over the course of his career.

 

By fielding metrics, Neifi is, was, and probably will be a better fielding shortstop than Izturis. Yes, the media overrates Izturis that much.

 

Even if Izturis reverts to his "all-star" form of 2004, he was actually only good for 3.5 WARP that year, so he'd be a run worse than what Neifi gave us last year. I don't expect Neifi to repeat his 2005 performance, but I also don't expect Izturis to repeat his 2004 performance.

 

If I had to choose between Izturis and Cedeno, it would be Cedeno every time. He'd give us essentially the same production at one tenth of the price.

[C.C.]

I'd honestly rather have Neifi Perez than Izturis.

 

Although he was terrible with the bat last year and shouldn't be starting on a team that's dead last in runs scored, Neifi's glove was very, very good last year, and he has been very good over the course of his career.

 

By fielding metrics, Neifi is, was, and probably will be a better fielding shortstop than Izturis. Yes, the media overrates Izturis that much.

 

Even if Izturis reverts to his "all-star" form of 2004, he was actually only good for 3.5 WARP that year, so he'd be a run worse than what Neifi gave us last year. I don't expect Neifi to repeat his 2005 performance, but I also don't expect Izturis to repeat his 2004 performance.

 

If I had to choose between Izturis and Cedeno, it would be Cedeno every time. He'd give us essentially the same production at one tenth of the price.

 

Neifi Perez is not getting any younger and do you really see him as a everyday player at his age?

[CubColtPacer]

I'd honestly rather have Neifi Perez than Izturis.

 

Even if Izturis reverts to his "all-star" form of 2004, he was actually only good for 3.5 WARP that year, so he'd be a run worse than what Neifi gave us last year. I don't expect Neifi to repeat his 2005 performance, but I also don't expect Izturis to repeat his 2004 performance.

 

Izturis wasn't an all-star in 2004-he was in 2005.

[Tracer Bullet]

Easy for me - Cedeno in a heartbeat.

[baseball7897]

Izturis to me is a better option. At the SS position, you need a solid glove. That is the most important spot on the infield. Cedeno has probably more range than Iztruis, but Cedeno will sometimes not make the routine play. Izturis will make the routine play, and the occasional outstanding play. Iztruis is not that fast. I think he is a good baserunner. He knows when to run, and when not to. If this was my team I would keep Izturis, and I would try to deal Cedeno, and others to Baltimore for Tejeda.

 

 

Point by point, bolded:

 

-If you're basing your desire to have Izturis on the fact that you need a good glove at SS, why trade for Tejada? He wouldn't play 3B for Anaheim in a pennant race. He's not going to move to 2B for Cesar Izturis in Chicago. If Izturis moves to 2B, what does his glove at SS matter?

 

-Cedeno will sometimes not make the routine play based on what?

 

-The third bolded bit makes you sound like Joe Morgan. He's not fast, but you think he's a good baserunner? Based on what?

 

-Knowing when to run is waaaaay low on the list of qualities you want in a ballplayer.

 

-Again, why trade the cheap guy who would be willing to move to 2B (which you've already implied is the easier defensive position) in favor of the expensive guy who doesn't really hit better than the cheap guy, and only has an advantage as long as he plays SS, which, in your Tejada scenario, he wouldn't?

 

If the Cubs wanted to trade for Tejada, the only scenario where aquiring Izturis makes sense is if the Cubs flip Izturis to Baltimore and move Cedeno to 2B. I can't see us having enough to land Tejada in any case, and I don't know why Baltimore would want Izturis. Keeping Izturing AND dealing for Tejada makes little sense financially and defensively.

 

Cedeno has not made the routine play some times. I watch the Cubs believe it or not. I seen him boot, miss play, miss judge, a flyball, and a groundball, that is routine for the majority of ss in the league.

 

Baserunner is very important. Take it look at Alou, and Jones. Getting doubled off on a flyball to the outfield when standing on second is unexceptable. You can blame coaching, but really its the player who has been taught since day one, to freeze on a line drive or a flyball since.

 

Tejeda is the guy I want to play SS. Im willing to move Izturis to 2b in favor of Tejeda. In my opinion Iztruis is more valuable than Cedeno is. Iztuirs wont throw the ball in the dugout, when time wasnt called. You could blame youth on that, but really that is unexceptable. Cedeno has shown no signs of being a patient hitter. He wont be a big power guy either. If Izturis can return to his 04, and first half of 05 form, then im taking Ituris over Cedeno anyday.

[Dr. Cub]

Izturis to me is a better option. At the SS position, you need a solid glove. That is the most important spot on the infield. Cedeno has probably more range than Iztruis, but Cedeno will sometimes not make the routine play. Izturis will make the routine play, and the occasional outstanding play. Iztruis is not that fast. I think he is a good baserunner. He knows when to run, and when not to. If this was my team I would keep Izturis, and I would try to deal Cedeno, and others to Baltimore for Tejeda.

 

 

Point by point, bolded:

 

-If you're basing your desire to have Izturis on the fact that you need a good glove at SS, why trade for Tejada? He wouldn't play 3B for Anaheim in a pennant race. He's not going to move to 2B for Cesar Izturis in Chicago. If Izturis moves to 2B, what does his glove at SS matter?

 

-Cedeno will sometimes not make the routine play based on what?

 

-The third bolded bit makes you sound like Joe Morgan. He's not fast, but you think he's a good baserunner? Based on what?

 

-Knowing when to run is waaaaay low on the list of qualities you want in a ballplayer.

 

-Again, why trade the cheap guy who would be willing to move to 2B (which you've already implied is the easier defensive position) in favor of the expensive guy who doesn't really hit better than the cheap guy, and only has an advantage as long as he plays SS, which, in your Tejada scenario, he wouldn't?

 

If the Cubs wanted to trade for Tejada, the only scenario where aquiring Izturis makes sense is if the Cubs flip Izturis to Baltimore and move Cedeno to 2B. I can't see us having enough to land Tejada in any case, and I don't know why Baltimore would want Izturis. Keeping Izturing AND dealing for Tejada makes little sense financially and defensively.

 

Cedeno has not made the routine play some times. I watch the Cubs believe it or not. I seen him boot, miss play, miss judge, a flyball, and a groundball, that is routine for the majority of ss in the league.

 

Baserunner is very important. Take it look at Alou, and Jones. Getting doubled off on a flyball to the outfield when standing on second is unexceptable. You can blame coaching, but really its the player who has been taught since day one, to freeze on a line drive or a flyball since.

 

Tejeda is the guy I want to play SS. Im willing to move Izturis to 2b in favor of Tejeda. In my opinion Iztruis is more valuable than Cedeno is. Iztuirs wont throw the ball in the dugout, when time wasnt called. You could blame youth on that, but really that is unexceptable. Cedeno has shown no signs of being a patient hitter. He wont be a big power guy either. If Izturis can return to his 04, and first half of 05 form, then im taking Ituris over Cedeno anyday.

 

When has Izturis been patient or a power hitter? If my aunt had testicles, she would be my uncle.

[C.C.]

Cedeno will sometimes not make the routine play based on what?

 

Based on watching the games. I see alot of games and Cedeno has made some boneheaded plays. Of course he's young and it's his first major league season as a full time shortstop and he's still learning. At this point right now Izturis is the better shortstop.

[Dr. Cub]

What about the difference in salaries? Does that matter? How about the fact that Izturis is only 26 and has an arthritic condition in his freakin' ELBOW. It's not like he's a place kicker for the Bears, or playing midfielder for the Fire. He's a baseball player, and the last time I checked the elbows were used quite a bit in the game.

[baseball7897]

Izturis to me is a better option. At the SS position, you need a solid glove. That is the most important spot on the infield. Cedeno has probably more range than Iztruis, but Cedeno will sometimes not make the routine play. Izturis will make the routine play, and the occasional outstanding play. Iztruis is not that fast. I think he is a good baserunner. He knows when to run, and when not to. If this was my team I would keep Izturis, and I would try to deal Cedeno, and others to Baltimore for Tejeda.

 

 

Point by point, bolded:

 

-If you're basing your desire to have Izturis on the fact that you need a good glove at SS, why trade for Tejada? He wouldn't play 3B for Anaheim in a pennant race. He's not going to move to 2B for Cesar Izturis in Chicago. If Izturis moves to 2B, what does his glove at SS matter?

 

-Cedeno will sometimes not make the routine play based on what?

 

-The third bolded bit makes you sound like Joe Morgan. He's not fast, but you think he's a good baserunner? Based on what?

 

-Knowing when to run is waaaaay low on the list of qualities you want in a ballplayer.

 

-Again, why trade the cheap guy who would be willing to move to 2B (which you've already implied is the easier defensive position) in favor of the expensive guy who doesn't really hit better than the cheap guy, and only has an advantage as long as he plays SS, which, in your Tejada scenario, he wouldn't?

 

If the Cubs wanted to trade for Tejada, the only scenario where aquiring Izturis makes sense is if the Cubs flip Izturis to Baltimore and move Cedeno to 2B. I can't see us having enough to land Tejada in any case, and I don't know why Baltimore would want Izturis. Keeping Izturing AND dealing for Tejada makes little sense financially and defensively.

 

Cedeno has not made the routine play some times. I watch the Cubs believe it or not. I seen him boot, miss play, miss judge, a flyball, and a groundball, that is routine for the majority of ss in the league.

 

Baserunner is very important. Take it look at Alou, and Jones. Getting doubled off on a flyball to the outfield when standing on second is unexceptable. You can blame coaching, but really its the player who has been taught since day one, to freeze on a line drive or a flyball since.

 

Tejeda is the guy I want to play SS. Im willing to move Izturis to 2b in favor of Tejeda. In my opinion Iztruis is more valuable than Cedeno is. Iztuirs wont throw the ball in the dugout, when time wasnt called. You could blame youth on that, but really that is unexceptable. Cedeno has shown no signs of being a patient hitter. He wont be a big power guy either. If Izturis can return to his 04, and first half of 05 form, then im taking Ituris over Cedeno anyday.

 

When has Izturis been patient or a power hitter? If my aunt had testicles, she would be my uncle.

 

I said, if Izturis can return to his 04, and 05 form, then im taking him. The guy is still young, and you could say the same for Cedeno. But Cedeno has been in a slump since May. His OBP will be worse than Izturis. Izturis probably could hit more HR than him also, and drive in more runs.

[Dr. Cub]

More HR's than Cedeno? Based on what? Your watching th egames? Izturis in his career hits a HR approximately every 215 AB's, Cedeno in his short career hits a HR about every 109 AB's. So exactly how could Izturis "probably" hit more?

[C.C.]

What about the difference in salaries? Does that matter? How about the fact that Izturis is only 26 and has an arthritic condition in his freakin' ELBOW. It's not like he's a place kicker for the Bears, or playing midfielder for the Fire. He's a baseball player, and the last time I checked the elbows were used quite a bit in the game.

 

That has been blown out of proportion by the media. Do we really know the extent of the injury? He was playing a very good 3rd base for the Dodgers and didn't look like he was hampered by his elbow.

[CubColtPacer]

Izturis to me is a better option. At the SS position, you need a solid glove. That is the most important spot on the infield. Cedeno has probably more range than Iztruis, but Cedeno will sometimes not make the routine play. Izturis will make the routine play, and the occasional outstanding play. Iztruis is not that fast. I think he is a good baserunner. He knows when to run, and when not to. If this was my team I would keep Izturis, and I would try to deal Cedeno, and others to Baltimore for Tejeda.

 

 

Point by point, bolded:

 

-If you're basing your desire to have Izturis on the fact that you need a good glove at SS, why trade for Tejada? He wouldn't play 3B for Anaheim in a pennant race. He's not going to move to 2B for Cesar Izturis in Chicago. If Izturis moves to 2B, what does his glove at SS matter?

 

-Cedeno will sometimes not make the routine play based on what?

 

-The third bolded bit makes you sound like Joe Morgan. He's not fast, but you think he's a good baserunner? Based on what?

 

-Knowing when to run is waaaaay low on the list of qualities you want in a ballplayer.

 

-Again, why trade the cheap guy who would be willing to move to 2B (which you've already implied is the easier defensive position) in favor of the expensive guy who doesn't really hit better than the cheap guy, and only has an advantage as long as he plays SS, which, in your Tejada scenario, he wouldn't?

 

If the Cubs wanted to trade for Tejada, the only scenario where aquiring Izturis makes sense is if the Cubs flip Izturis to Baltimore and move Cedeno to 2B. I can't see us having enough to land Tejada in any case, and I don't know why Baltimore would want Izturis. Keeping Izturing AND dealing for Tejada makes little sense financially and defensively.

 

Cedeno has not made the routine play some times. I watch the Cubs believe it or not. I seen him boot, miss play, miss judge, a flyball, and a groundball, that is routine for the majority of ss in the league.

 

Baserunner is very important. Take it look at Alou, and Jones. Getting doubled off on a flyball to the outfield when standing on second is unexceptable. You can blame coaching, but really its the player who has been taught since day one, to freeze on a line drive or a flyball since.

 

Tejeda is the guy I want to play SS. Im willing to move Izturis to 2b in favor of Tejeda. In my opinion Iztruis is more valuable than Cedeno is. Iztuirs wont throw the ball in the dugout, when time wasnt called. You could blame youth on that, but really that is unexceptable. Cedeno has shown no signs of being a patient hitter. He wont be a big power guy either. If Izturis can return to his 04, and first half of 05 form, then im taking Ituris over Cedeno anyday.

 

When has Izturis been patient or a power hitter? If my aunt had testicles, she would be my uncle.

 

The first half of 2004 and 2005 he was an average shortstop for XBH. .381 slugging for a SS is about the median of shortsops, and he had a .425 slugging in the first two months of 05, and that would have been between 8th-15th every year for shortstop slugging. Also, his patience in 2004 was about average for a SS, and his patience through the first two months of 05 was very similar to 04. So, he may never have been the best at either of those two areas-but he was average for a shortstop in those two areas-which at least right now, Cedeno is not close to that.

[C.C.]

More HR's than Cedeno? Based on what? Your watching th egames? Izturis in his career hits a HR approximately every 215 AB's, Cedeno in his short career hits a HR about every 109 AB's. So exactly how could Izturis "probably" hit more?

 

I have to agree with you here. I think Cedeno has a bit more pop in his bat then Izzy.

[ConstableRabbit]

Would you rather have AIDS or ebola?

[USSoccer]

Cedeno will sometimes not make the routine play based on what?

 

Based on watching the games. I see alot of games and Cedeno has made some boneheaded plays. Of course he's young and it's his first major league season as a full time shortstop and he's still learning. At this point right now Izturis is the better shortstop.

 

Have you watched Izturis enough to be able to make the same anecdotal claim?

[C.C.]

Cedeno will sometimes not make the routine play based on what?

 

Based on watching the games. I see alot of games and Cedeno has made some boneheaded plays. Of course he's young and it's his first major league season as a full time shortstop and he's still learning. At this point right now Izturis is the better shortstop.

 

Have you watched Izturis enough to be able to make the same anecdotal claim?

 

Nope! But Izzy winning a gold glove, and everyone and their mother on all the Dodgers message boards praising his glove work, I can assume he can play a little bit of Shortstop. In fact I can't find anything or anyone that says he's not a bad shortstop.

[USSoccer]

Cedeno will sometimes not make the routine play based on what?

 

Based on watching the games. I see alot of games and Cedeno has made some boneheaded plays. Of course he's young and it's his first major league season as a full time shortstop and he's still learning. At this point right now Izturis is the better shortstop.

 

Have you watched Izturis enough to be able to make the same anecdotal claim?

 

Nope! But Izzy winning a gold glove, and everyone and their mother on all the Dodgers message boards praising his glove work, I can assume he can play a little bit of Shortstop. In fact I can't find anything or anyone that says he's not a bad shortstop.

 

#1, the Gold Glove is a joke. You should know that. Bobby Abreu has one. Rafael Palmiero had one in a season where he played like 30 games at 1B.

 

#2, he wasn't even the best SS on the Dodgers. Rafael Furcal is/was. By a wide margin:

 

Rafael Furcal, 2005 FRAR (adjusted for season): 41

Cesar Izturis, 2005 FRAR (season-adjusted, this is the last year Izturis played short): 22

 

Now, defensive metrics are still very raw, but that's a huge gap.

 

#3, there are people on message boards praising Neifi Perez's glove work. So you're going by 2 completely meaningless pieces of evidence to support your statement.

 

Now, all that said, he's not a bad defensive SS. He's probably solid. But I've never seen him play, I won't assume he's great based on a Gold Glove award and based on his salary and his offensive production throughout his career:

 

In his six-year career, Izturis has never:

OBPed above .330

SLGed abbove .381

or hit more than 4(!) home runs in a season.

 

...I would rather take my chances that Cedeno will continue to develop into a perfectly fine SS at a fraction of the cost.

[C.C.]

Cedeno will sometimes not make the routine play based on what?

 

Based on watching the games. I see alot of games and Cedeno has made some boneheaded plays. Of course he's young and it's his first major league season as a full time shortstop and he's still learning. At this point right now Izturis is the better shortstop.

 

Have you watched Izturis enough to be able to make the same anecdotal claim?

 

Nope! But Izzy winning a gold glove, and everyone and their mother on all the Dodgers message boards praising his glove work, I can assume he can play a little bit of Shortstop. In fact I can't find anything or anyone that says he's not a bad shortstop.

 

#1, the Gold Glove is a joke. You should know that. Bobby Abreu has one. Rafael Palmiero had one in a season where he played like 30 games at 1B.

 

#2, he wasn't even the best SS on the Dodgers. Rafael Furcal is/was. By a wide margin:

 

Rafael Furcal, 2005 FRAR (adjusted for season): 41

Cesar Izturis, 2005 FRAR (season-adjusted, this is the last year Izturis played short): 22

 

Now, defensive metrics are still very raw, but that's a huge gap.

 

#3, there are people on message boards praising Neifi Perez's glove work. So you're going by 2 completely meaningless pieces of evidence to support your statement.

 

Now, all that said, he's not a bad defensive SS. He's probably solid. But I've never seen him play, I won't assume he's great based on a Gold Glove award and based on his salary and his offensive production throughout his career:

 

In his six-year career, Izturis has never:

OBPed above .330

SLGed abbove .381

or hit more than 4(!) home runs in a season.

 

...I would rather take my chances that Cedeno will continue to develop into a perfectly fine SS at a fraction of the cost.

 

Maybe Cedeno will be the better shortstop down the line, but I said at this point in time Izturis is the better SS right now.

[CubinNY]

Dollars to donuts that Cedeno is traded in the off-season for a "proven" 2nd baseman.

 

So, not only will Hendry have traded away a less expensive player, he will trade away the better player.

 

Folks, get ready for a Little Ceaser, Neifi (or if you prefer Neifi Jr., Neifi)double play tandem at least 60 games next year.

 

Between these two and the pitcher's spot, that will make three almost automatic outs in the line-up. It will strike fear in the hearts of the NL.

[sherwood921]

Would you rather have AIDS or ebola?

 

I'm taking ebola, AIDS is overpaid, had TJ surgery, and can't hit worth a lick. There's still a chance with ebola.

[JGalt73]

Here's how PECOTA weighs in from preseason this year...

 

Cedeno

 

Year OWARP, DWARP (total WARP), mean VORP

2007 0.7,2.5 (3.2) 13.5 VORP

2008 0.9,2.4 (3.3) 16.2 VORP

2009 1.0,2.1 (3.2) 16.9 VORP

2010 1.1,2.3 (3.4) 18.1 VORP

 

Izturis

 

Year OWARP, DWARP (total WARP), mean VORP

2007 0.0,3.4 (3.3) 6.3 VORP

2008 0.0,3.0 (2.8 ) 4.5 VORP

2009 0.0,2.9 (2.9) 6.1 VORP

2010 -0.2,2.2 (2.0) 2.5 VORP

 

Next year's a tie, then Cedeno is a tick better every year in WARP. Start adding salary to the mix and there is no contest. The only problem is that Ronny is already far underproducing his projections and may not achieve even the modest numbers above...

[MikeyLikesCubbies]

Neither. I want Nomar back. We need him. Hell, I need him. I'm a mess without him. I miss him so damn much. I miss being with him, I miss being near him. I miss his laugh. I miss his scent; I miss his musk. When this all gets sorted out, I think him and me and Mia should get an apartment together.