How many times can Ortiz be clutch????

[Cubzfan64]

He did it once again today in the bottom of the 10th, runners on 1 & 2 with 2 outs this monster guy comes up to bat and what does he do??? Very obviously swings at a pitch to hit it to the opposite field and sends a ground ball right where the SS would be if they weren't severely shifted and the winning run scores!!

 

Man that guy has been the bargain of the century for the Red Sox!!

 

Gotta love a hitter who takes what the opposition gives him when the game is on the line!!

[mhuber92211]

No such thing as "clutch" remember? :)

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

Who's your Papi?

[Bruno7481]

No such thing as "clutch" remember? :)

 

Exactly..... :lol:

[Jon]

His numbers are all pretty close together, whether it's none on, runners on, RISP, close and late, etc. It sure seems like he's had an abnormally high number of opportunities to win it with a base hit, though.

[bhogg]

they should trade him while his value is at its peak

[chuckywang]

they should trade him while his value is at its peak

 

LOL, wow would Epstein be brought out into the streets and beaten to death if he did that.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

As many as he wants to be.

[bhogg]

they should trade him while his value is at its peak

 

LOL, wow would Epstein be brought out into the streets and beaten to death if he did that.

 

buy low, sell high. . . .dudes and dudettes.

[Wolverineman]

LOL, wow would Epstein be brought out into the streets and beaten to death if he did that.

 

 

No doubt. If he traded Ortiz, it'd make the media reaction to the Penny/LoDuca trade look minor.

 

 

As for Ortiz, if he had consistantly been much better in "clutch" situations throughout his entire career, I might be inclined to believe he's some magical clutch hitter. But he hasn't. Heck, this year, his RISP numbers are below his total #s. Back in '03 he was significantly worse with RISP than he was without. Same thing happened in '02. I think whats happened is simple. He's become one of the best pure hitters in the game today, and thanks to a couple big postseason hits and a somewhat fluky year last year, he's thought of as the greatest clutch hitter ever. He's probably not, he's just a fantastic hitter who gets his hits any time, no matter the situation.

[Cubzfan64]

LOL, wow would Epstein be brought out into the streets and beaten to death if he did that.

 

 

No doubt. If he traded Ortiz, it'd make the media reaction to the Penny/LoDuca trade look minor.

 

 

As for Ortiz, if he had consistantly been much better in "clutch" situations throughout his entire career, I might be inclined to believe he's some magical clutch hitter. But he hasn't. Heck, this year, his RISP numbers are below his total #s. Back in '03 he was significantly worse with RISP than he was without. Same thing happened in '02. I think whats happened is simple. He's become one of the best pure hitters in the game today, and thanks to a couple big postseason hits and a somewhat fluky year last year, he's thought of as the greatest clutch hitter ever. He's probably not, he's just a fantastic hitter who gets his hits any time, no matter the situation.

 

I hear what you're saying, I honestly do and I've looked at the numbers myself - but all I can tell you is that watching the games, the guy has a mighty uncanny knack for driving in the winning run.

[Exile on Waveland]

LOL, wow would Epstein be brought out into the streets and beaten to death if he did that.

 

 

No doubt. If he traded Ortiz, it'd make the media reaction to the Penny/LoDuca trade look minor.

 

 

As for Ortiz, if he had consistantly been much better in "clutch" situations throughout his entire career, I might be inclined to believe he's some magical clutch hitter. But he hasn't. Heck, this year, his RISP numbers are below his total #s. Back in '03 he was significantly worse with RISP than he was without. Same thing happened in '02. I think whats happened is simple. He's become one of the best pure hitters in the game today, and thanks to a couple big postseason hits and a somewhat fluky year last year, he's thought of as the greatest clutch hitter ever. He's probably not, he's just a fantastic hitter who gets his hits any time, no matter the situation.

 

I hear what you're saying, I honestly do and I've looked at the numbers myself - but all I can tell you is that watching the games, the guy has a mighty uncanny knack for driving in the winning run.

 

Listen, I have no idea if clutch exists or not. However, numbers with RISP tell you nothing about clutchness. A single with runners on the sixth inning winning 11-3 isn't clutch. Ortiz's constant game-winning hits are clutch. I don't really mean to say Ortiz is clutch, just that numbers with RISP and, for that matter, "close and late" numbers tell you nothing about clutchness. I just want a better statistic to measure if clutchness exists before conceding it doesn't.

[Cubzfan64]

Quote from Ortiz after the game: "The guy was throwing a hard sinker. If I try to pull it, it's a ground ball to first," said Ortiz, wearing dark sunglasses. "I go the other way. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. In a situation like that you want to try it."

 

I love it when a slugger has a brain too!!!!!!! The guy may only be a DH, but one of these years he's gonna get an MVP trophy.

[UK1679666180]

Clutch exists, any key moment of a game is clutch if the result is changed by one action (usually associated with a late/GW HR).

 

As far as applying predictive value is where it becomes cloudy.

 

If I was a Red Sox fan and the choice was Ortiz or Crisp, I want Ortiz. More b/c he is the better hitter than anything else. The quality of the hitter determines how well they will do in key situations more than anything else.

[Exile on Waveland]

Clutch exists, any key moment of a game is clutch if the result is changed by one action (usually associated with a late/GW HR).

 

As far as applying predictive value is where it becomes cloudy.

 

If I was a Red Sox fan and the choice was Ortiz or Crisp, I want Ortiz. More b/c he is the better hitter than anything else. The quality of the hitter determines how well they will do in key situations more than anything else.

 

Yes, there is a nice semantics debate regarding clutch hitting. Obviously, Ortiz's hit was "clutch". Is he, or anyone, a "clutch" hitter? Maybe, maybe not. Obviously, clutch exists in the way that any game changing/winning play is seizing the moment.

[UK1679666180]

He's a clutch hitter, he's established that. But, does he focus more? Does he will himself to do better in that situation? Or is he just a damn good hitter in any situation?

 

I think he's a damn good hitter.

[wiumike]

Clutch does exists. and what it means you are able to perform up to your personal ability. If you get nervous or shaky under pressure you will not be clutch and you will perform below your ability. If you are able to take the pressure and still perform as if it didn't matter then you are clutch.

 

I beleive if someone has an uncanny ability to perform under pressure then they are more of a slacker. If they are focused and concentrating they can knock a hit at will when the pressure is on, then they should also do it with 2 outs in the top of the fourth inning in a meaningless game.

[Fro]

Clutch certainly exists in other sports, so I see no reason why there shouldn't be clutch hitters in baseball.

[Exile on Waveland]

Clutch does exists. and what it means you are able to perform up to your personal ability. If you get nervous or shaky under pressure you will not be clutch and you will perform below your ability. If you are able to take the pressure and still perform as if it didn't matter then you are clutch.

 

I beleive if someone has an uncanny ability to perform under pressure then they are more of a slacker. If they are focused and concentrating they can knock a hit at will when the pressure is on, then they should also do it with 2 outs in the top of the fourth inning in a meaningless game.

 

I think anti-clutch definitely exists. Players are not robots, they react differently in different situations. It's human nature, some will tighten up and get stressed in clutch situations. However, that doesn't mean the opposite is true. Do some hitters actually focus better in big situations? If so, are they slacking the rest of the time? I don't think anti-clutch proves the existence of clutch, though.

[Wolverineman]

Ortiz's constant game-winning hits are clutch. I don't really mean to say Ortiz is clutch, just that numbers with RISP and, for that matter, "close and late" numbers tell you nothing about clutchness. I just want a better statistic to measure if clutchness exists before conceding it doesn't.

 

I would basically agree with you there. RISP #s aren't that good for clutch, though I think they're decent enough to at least use in the post I did. Ideally I would have used the WPA data at Fan Graphs, but they don't go back to previous years so it would not have been much use. I think that WPA probably is the best clutch statistic out there today, though it certainly has its flaws too. [/url]

[wiumike]

Clutch does exists. and what it means you are able to perform up to your personal ability. If you get nervous or shaky under pressure you will not be clutch and you will perform below your ability. If you are able to take the pressure and still perform as if it didn't matter then you are clutch.

 

I beleive if someone has an uncanny ability to perform under pressure then they are more of a slacker. If they are focused and concentrating they can knock a hit at will when the pressure is on, then they should also do it with 2 outs in the top of the fourth inning in a meaningless game.

 

I think anti-clutch definitely exists. Players are not robots, they react differently in different situations. It's human nature, some will tighten up and get stressed in clutch situations. However, that doesn't mean the opposite is true. Do some hitters actually focus better in big situations? If so, are they slacking the rest of the time? I don't think anti-clutch proves the existence of clutch, though.

 

Anti-clutch existing proves the existence of clutch if you are assuming the definition of clutch is performing up to the statistical average/personal ability of the individual.

 

I would use golf as an example of this. Let say you were a good golfer and were able to go to a driving range and hit it a driver straight at will and place the ball where you wanted. Would you consider that clutch if that person was able to take that ability onto the golf course and play a round by himself and be able to drive the ball well. Probably not. This is because there was no pressure. Now let’s say he was playing in some tournament and was able to continue to hit perfect drive after drive. You may now consider this guy clutch now that it is during a pressure situation and the guy continues to perform.

[CubColtPacer]

Clutch does exists. and what it means you are able to perform up to your personal ability. If you get nervous or shaky under pressure you will not be clutch and you will perform below your ability. If you are able to take the pressure and still perform as if it didn't matter then you are clutch.

 

I beleive if someone has an uncanny ability to perform under pressure then they are more of a slacker. If they are focused and concentrating they can knock a hit at will when the pressure is on, then they should also do it with 2 outs in the top of the fourth inning in a meaningless game.

 

I think anti-clutch definitely exists. Players are not robots, they react differently in different situations. It's human nature, some will tighten up and get stressed in clutch situations. However, that doesn't mean the opposite is true. Do some hitters actually focus better in big situations? If so, are they slacking the rest of the time? I don't think anti-clutch proves the existence of clutch, though.

 

Anti-clutch existing proves the existence of clutch if you are assuming the definition of clutch is performing up to the statistical average/personal ability of the individual.

 

I would use golf as an example of this. Let say you were a good golfer and were able to go to a driving range and hit it a driver straight at will and place the ball where you wanted. Would you consider that clutch if that person was able to take that ability onto the golf course and play a round by himself and be able to drive the ball well. Probably not. This is because there was no pressure. Now let’s say he was playing in some tournament and was able to continue to hit perfect drive after drive. You may now consider this guy clutch now that it is during a pressure situation and the guy continues to perform.

 

Exactly..the stats show that as a whole, performance goes down in these key situations. It is obvious why this is-the other team's pitcher bears down, relievers are brought in to face one batter, and other things set up the batter to fail. If you can maintain your production in these situations, that can certainly be defined as clutch. At the beginning of the game, everybody gets to face the same guy. With the game on the line though, the left hander who is devestating against left handed hitters comes in, and it's the job of that hitter to get a hit anyway. If you can take a teams best punch and still stay the same type of hitter, you are clutch.

[UK1679666180]

Clutch does exists. and what it means you are able to perform up to your personal ability. If you get nervous or shaky under pressure you will not be clutch and you will perform below your ability. If you are able to take the pressure and still perform as if it didn't matter then you are clutch.

 

I beleive if someone has an uncanny ability to perform under pressure then they are more of a slacker. If they are focused and concentrating they can knock a hit at will when the pressure is on, then they should also do it with 2 outs in the top of the fourth inning in a meaningless game.

 

They're not focusing on trying to get a hit more than any other hit, they're trying to focus on blocking out the situation and the added pressure. They're trying to get themselves in the same mindset as every other AB. It doesn't make sense them being a slacker b/c they have the ability to block everything out.

[Rerisen]

They're not focusing on trying to get a hit more than any other hit, they're trying to focus on blocking out the situation and the added pressure. They're trying to get themselves in the same mindset as every other AB. It doesn't make sense them being a slacker b/c they have the ability to block everything out.

 

It seems impossible to totally block out that kind of pressure. It is possible that some batters can simply use that crucible of an intense moment to really hone their skills so that they are doing everything possible to be in a position to succeed. No doubt the adrenline is going at a faster rate than batting in the first inning. I'm sure most dont 'slack' on purpose in other parts of the game but maybe that pressure can be a focusing tool while its a liability to others more prone to choking. Though is is very rare to find many guys that will go a whole career producing clutch numbers every year. It seems to vary greatly.

[UK1679666180]

You can't block it out completely, some are just better than others at blocking it out to where it doesn't impact the AB as some might.

 

Of course, a slight negative impact from a great hitter is often better than almost no impact from an ok hitter.