anyone else think this about prior and wood

[Ding Dong Johnson]

My balloons. Those are my balloons. He stole my balloons! Why didn't anyone tell me he had one of those... things?

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/13/Jokermovie.jpg/180px-Jokermovie.jpg

 

Random and irrelevant movie quotes are fun.

[ltb]

My thought is that both were/are injured.

 

And it's Dusty's/Larry's fault.

 

I'll blame Dusty for some things, but I don't know if I can go as far and say he and/or Rothschild hurt Prior.

 

Starting in 2003, when Dusty took over here are Prior's Innings pitched and pitchers per game.

 

2003: 211 113

2004: 119 98

2005 167 104

 

Those number aren't that crazy. If Prior can't throw 100 pitchers per game without getting hurt it isn't going to matter who is managing the club.

 

Wood's numbers look like this

 

2003: 211 110

2004: 140 101

2005: 66 88

 

My point is I don't think it is ALL Dusty/Rothschild's fault. These two guys seem to be extremely brittle. Wood has more of an injury history than Prior so he is a little easier to figure out. Not sure what the deal is with Prior, sure he threw 200+ innings in 2003, but most elite pitchers will throw 200+ innings in a year.

 

Average number of pitches per start doesn't tell the whole story, I'm afraid. It has a lot to do with how many pitches they're being run out there for in certain starts. Just look at the PAP data.

 

In 2003, Prior made 30 starts. Of those 30, 20 were 110 pitches or more. Of those 20, 9 of them were more than 122 pitches. Wood made 32 starts and also had 20 starts over 110 pitches, 8 of those over 122, and 1 of them over 133. Livan Hernandez, widely regarded as the most abused pitcher in baseball because of his "rubber arm," made 17 CAT3+ starts in 2003 (and finished 3rd in PAP - 1-5 was Vazquez, Wood, Livan, Prior, Redman, with Zambrano sitting at 11th).

 

Average pitch counts can be helpful, but to say Dusty and Rothschild aren't highly responsible for Wood and Prior's troubles is ignoring the truth.

[Soul]

I think wins are a valuable stat...maybe not all-inclusive when evaluating overall performance, but valuable nonetheless. If you disagree then that's your M.O. :wink:

 

Why don't you look at some of those other stats, compare them to other pitchers, and then tell me Kerry Wood only had 1 good game?

 

I think a lot of his hype is based solely on that one game. Sure he had some good outings in his career (even Rusch has the occasional good day), but I don't think he is the elite MLB pitcher that his salary suggests.

 

Wait. Remind me when Rusch dominated one of the hottest hitting teams in the majors twice in the playoffs again? I think I missed it.

[impaler_240]

I think wins are a valuable stat...maybe not all-inclusive when evaluating overall performance, but valuable nonetheless. If you disagree then that's your M.O. :wink:

 

Why don't you look at some of those other stats, compare them to other pitchers, and then tell me Kerry Wood only had 1 good game?

 

I think a lot of his hype is based solely on that one game. Sure he had some good outings in his career (even Rusch has the occasional good day), but I don't think he is the elite MLB pitcher that his salary suggests.

 

Wait. Remind me when Rusch dominated one of the hottest hitting teams in the majors twice in the playoffs again? I think I missed it.

 

I never said Rusch dominated anything, did I? :?

 

I simply said that he occasionally has a good outing. That may be subject to debate this season though. :lol:

[impaler_240]

My balloons. Those are my balloons. He stole my balloons! Why didn't anyone tell me he had one of those... things?

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/13/Jokermovie.jpg/180px-Jokermovie.jpg

 

Random and irrelevant movie quotes are fun.

 

That is a good movie. I was glad to see Batman Begins go back to the roots of the story (comics) and the original movie. 8)

[srbin84]

My thought is that both were/are injured.

 

And it's Dusty's/Larry's fault.

 

I'll blame Dusty for some things, but I don't know if I can go as far and say he and/or Rothschild hurt Prior.

 

Starting in 2003, when Dusty took over here are Prior's Innings pitched and pitchers per game.

 

2003: 211 113

2004: 119 98

2005 167 104

 

Those number aren't that crazy. If Prior can't throw 100 pitchers per game without getting hurt it isn't going to matter who is managing the club.

 

Wood's numbers look like this

 

2003: 211 110

2004: 140 101

2005: 66 88

 

My point is I don't think it is ALL Dusty/Rothschild's fault. These two guys seem to be extremely brittle. Wood has more of an injury history than Prior so he is a little easier to figure out. Not sure what the deal is with Prior, sure he threw 200+ innings in 2003, but most elite pitchers will throw 200+ innings in a year.

 

Average number of pitches per start doesn't tell the whole story, I'm afraid. It has a lot to do with how many pitches they're being run out there for in certain starts. Just look at the PAP data.

 

In 2003, Prior made 30 starts. Of those 30, 20 were 110 pitches or more. Of those 20, 9 of them were more than 122 pitches. Wood made 32 starts and also had 20 starts over 110 pitches, 8 of those over 122, and 1 of them over 133. Livan Hernandez, widely regarded as the most abused pitcher in baseball because of his "rubber arm," made 17 CAT3+ starts in 2003 (and finished 3rd in PAP - 1-5 was Vazquez, Wood, Livan, Prior, Redman, with Zambrano sitting at 11th).

 

Average pitch counts can be helpful, but to say Dusty and Rothschild aren't highly responsible for Wood and Prior's troubles is ignoring the truth.

 

How come Vazquez, Livan, and Redman have all pitched a lot since then?

[impaler_240]

My thought is that both were/are injured.

 

And it's Dusty's/Larry's fault.

 

I'll blame Dusty for some things, but I don't know if I can go as far and say he and/or Rothschild hurt Prior.

 

Starting in 2003, when Dusty took over here are Prior's Innings pitched and pitchers per game.

 

2003: 211 113

2004: 119 98

2005 167 104

 

Those number aren't that crazy. If Prior can't throw 100 pitchers per game without getting hurt it isn't going to matter who is managing the club.

 

Wood's numbers look like this

 

2003: 211 110

2004: 140 101

2005: 66 88

 

My point is I don't think it is ALL Dusty/Rothschild's fault. These two guys seem to be extremely brittle. Wood has more of an injury history than Prior so he is a little easier to figure out. Not sure what the deal is with Prior, sure he threw 200+ innings in 2003, but most elite pitchers will throw 200+ innings in a year.

 

Average number of pitches per start doesn't tell the whole story, I'm afraid. It has a lot to do with how many pitches they're being run out there for in certain starts. Just look at the PAP data.

 

In 2003, Prior made 30 starts. Of those 30, 20 were 110 pitches or more. Of those 20, 9 of them were more than 122 pitches. Wood made 32 starts and also had 20 starts over 110 pitches, 8 of those over 122, and 1 of them over 133. Livan Hernandez, widely regarded as the most abused pitcher in baseball because of his "rubber arm," made 17 CAT3+ starts in 2003 (and finished 3rd in PAP - 1-5 was Vazquez, Wood, Livan, Prior, Redman, with Zambrano sitting at 11th).

 

Average pitch counts can be helpful, but to say Dusty and Rothschild aren't highly responsible for Wood and Prior's troubles is ignoring the truth.

 

How come Vazquez, Livan, and Redman have all pitched a lot since then?

 

They aren't injured.

[srbin84]

My thought is that both were/are injured.

 

And it's Dusty's/Larry's fault.

 

I'll blame Dusty for some things, but I don't know if I can go as far and say he and/or Rothschild hurt Prior.

 

Starting in 2003, when Dusty took over here are Prior's Innings pitched and pitchers per game.

 

2003: 211 113

2004: 119 98

2005 167 104

 

Those number aren't that crazy. If Prior can't throw 100 pitchers per game without getting hurt it isn't going to matter who is managing the club.

 

Wood's numbers look like this

 

2003: 211 110

2004: 140 101

2005: 66 88

 

My point is I don't think it is ALL Dusty/Rothschild's fault. These two guys seem to be extremely brittle. Wood has more of an injury history than Prior so he is a little easier to figure out. Not sure what the deal is with Prior, sure he threw 200+ innings in 2003, but most elite pitchers will throw 200+ innings in a year.

 

Average number of pitches per start doesn't tell the whole story, I'm afraid. It has a lot to do with how many pitches they're being run out there for in certain starts. Just look at the PAP data.

 

In 2003, Prior made 30 starts. Of those 30, 20 were 110 pitches or more. Of those 20, 9 of them were more than 122 pitches. Wood made 32 starts and also had 20 starts over 110 pitches, 8 of those over 122, and 1 of them over 133. Livan Hernandez, widely regarded as the most abused pitcher in baseball because of his "rubber arm," made 17 CAT3+ starts in 2003 (and finished 3rd in PAP - 1-5 was Vazquez, Wood, Livan, Prior, Redman, with Zambrano sitting at 11th).

 

Average pitch counts can be helpful, but to say Dusty and Rothschild aren't highly responsible for Wood and Prior's troubles is ignoring the truth.

 

How come Vazquez, Livan, and Redman have all pitched a lot since then?

 

They aren't injured.

 

But their managers abused them, how can that be?

[impaler_240]

My thought is that both were/are injured.

 

And it's Dusty's/Larry's fault.

 

I'll blame Dusty for some things, but I don't know if I can go as far and say he and/or Rothschild hurt Prior.

 

Starting in 2003, when Dusty took over here are Prior's Innings pitched and pitchers per game.

 

2003: 211 113

2004: 119 98

2005 167 104

 

Those number aren't that crazy. If Prior can't throw 100 pitchers per game without getting hurt it isn't going to matter who is managing the club.

 

Wood's numbers look like this

 

2003: 211 110

2004: 140 101

2005: 66 88

 

My point is I don't think it is ALL Dusty/Rothschild's fault. These two guys seem to be extremely brittle. Wood has more of an injury history than Prior so he is a little easier to figure out. Not sure what the deal is with Prior, sure he threw 200+ innings in 2003, but most elite pitchers will throw 200+ innings in a year.

 

Average number of pitches per start doesn't tell the whole story, I'm afraid. It has a lot to do with how many pitches they're being run out there for in certain starts. Just look at the PAP data.

 

In 2003, Prior made 30 starts. Of those 30, 20 were 110 pitches or more. Of those 20, 9 of them were more than 122 pitches. Wood made 32 starts and also had 20 starts over 110 pitches, 8 of those over 122, and 1 of them over 133. Livan Hernandez, widely regarded as the most abused pitcher in baseball because of his "rubber arm," made 17 CAT3+ starts in 2003 (and finished 3rd in PAP - 1-5 was Vazquez, Wood, Livan, Prior, Redman, with Zambrano sitting at 11th).

 

Average pitch counts can be helpful, but to say Dusty and Rothschild aren't highly responsible for Wood and Prior's troubles is ignoring the truth.

 

How come Vazquez, Livan, and Redman have all pitched a lot since then?

 

They aren't injured.

 

But their managers abused them, how can that be?

 

http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/capblog/2005/03/03/goat.jpg

[CubinNY]

My thought is that both were/are injured.

 

And it's Dusty's/Larry's fault.

 

I'll blame Dusty for some things, but I don't know if I can go as far and say he and/or Rothschild hurt Prior.

 

Starting in 2003, when Dusty took over here are Prior's Innings pitched and pitchers per game.

 

2003: 211 113

2004: 119 98

2005 167 104

 

Those number aren't that crazy. If Prior can't throw 100 pitchers per game without getting hurt it isn't going to matter who is managing the club.

 

Wood's numbers look like this

 

2003: 211 110

2004: 140 101

2005: 66 88

 

My point is I don't think it is ALL Dusty/Rothschild's fault. These two guys seem to be extremely brittle. Wood has more of an injury history than Prior so he is a little easier to figure out. Not sure what the deal is with Prior, sure he threw 200+ innings in 2003, but most elite pitchers will throw 200+ innings in a year.

 

Average number of pitches per start doesn't tell the whole story, I'm afraid. It has a lot to do with how many pitches they're being run out there for in certain starts. Just look at the PAP data.

 

In 2003, Prior made 30 starts. Of those 30, 20 were 110 pitches or more. Of those 20, 9 of them were more than 122 pitches. Wood made 32 starts and also had 20 starts over 110 pitches, 8 of those over 122, and 1 of them over 133. Livan Hernandez, widely regarded as the most abused pitcher in baseball because of his "rubber arm," made 17 CAT3+ starts in 2003 (and finished 3rd in PAP - 1-5 was Vazquez, Wood, Livan, Prior, Redman, with Zambrano sitting at 11th).

 

Average pitch counts can be helpful, but to say Dusty and Rothschild aren't highly responsible for Wood and Prior's troubles is ignoring the truth.

 

How come Vazquez, Livan, and Redman have all pitched a lot since then?

 

They aren't injured.

 

But their managers abused them, how can that be?

 

http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/capblog/2005/03/03/goat.jpg

 

It's nice that you've learned how to insert pictures into your posts, but scapegoating is hardly the right answer here.

 

Wood, Prior, and Z have been some of the most abused pitchers in baseball going back to 2003.

 

So far, they've been lucky with Zambrano.

[Chocolate Milk]

My thought is that both were/are injured.

 

And it's Dusty's/Larry's fault.

 

I'll blame Dusty for some things, but I don't know if I can go as far and say he and/or Rothschild hurt Prior.

 

Starting in 2003, when Dusty took over here are Prior's Innings pitched and pitchers per game.

 

2003: 211 113

2004: 119 98

2005 167 104

 

Those number aren't that crazy. If Prior can't throw 100 pitchers per game without getting hurt it isn't going to matter who is managing the club.

 

Wood's numbers look like this

 

2003: 211 110

2004: 140 101

2005: 66 88

 

My point is I don't think it is ALL Dusty/Rothschild's fault. These two guys seem to be extremely brittle. Wood has more of an injury history than Prior so he is a little easier to figure out. Not sure what the deal is with Prior, sure he threw 200+ innings in 2003, but most elite pitchers will throw 200+ innings in a year.

 

Average number of pitches per start doesn't tell the whole story, I'm afraid. It has a lot to do with how many pitches they're being run out there for in certain starts. Just look at the PAP data.

 

In 2003, Prior made 30 starts. Of those 30, 20 were 110 pitches or more. Of those 20, 9 of them were more than 122 pitches. Wood made 32 starts and also had 20 starts over 110 pitches, 8 of those over 122, and 1 of them over 133. Livan Hernandez, widely regarded as the most abused pitcher in baseball because of his "rubber arm," made 17 CAT3+ starts in 2003 (and finished 3rd in PAP - 1-5 was Vazquez, Wood, Livan, Prior, Redman, with Zambrano sitting at 11th).

 

Average pitch counts can be helpful, but to say Dusty and Rothschild aren't highly responsible for Wood and Prior's troubles is ignoring the truth.

 

How come Vazquez, Livan, and Redman have all pitched a lot since then?

 

They aren't injured.

 

But their managers abused them, how can that be?

 

Vasquez ERA:

2003: 3.24

2004: 4.91

2005: 4.42

2006: 4.43

 

Redman ERA:

2003: 3.59

2004: 4.71

2005: 4.90

2006: 5.95

 

Yeah that 2003 abuse seems to have left them in pretty good shape after in the years following. They are really tearing it up.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

My thought is that both were/are injured.

 

And it's Dusty's/Larry's fault.

 

I'll blame Dusty for some things, but I don't know if I can go as far and say he and/or Rothschild hurt Prior.

 

Starting in 2003, when Dusty took over here are Prior's Innings pitched and pitchers per game.

 

2003: 211 113

2004: 119 98

2005 167 104

 

Those number aren't that crazy. If Prior can't throw 100 pitchers per game without getting hurt it isn't going to matter who is managing the club.

 

But with Prior and those 211 IP in 2003, it was his first season throwing over 138 innings (his soph year at USC). Given he was 22 for most of that season and that he hadn't thrown anywhere near that many innings before, it would have been nice to see him be pushed a bit slowly rather than immediately go have a 200+ IP season with 113 pitcher per game (the 113 pitches/game is more than Z has ever done, mind you). Young arms should be broken in and can be very fragile when they're throwing more pitches than they have ever done before.

 

And this does ignore the two freak injuries Mark has had.

[goonys evil twin]

Those other guys weren't 21, 22 and 23 years old when they were treated how Prior was treated.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

My thought is that both were/are injured.

 

And it's Dusty's/Larry's fault.

 

I'll blame Dusty for some things, but I don't know if I can go as far and say he and/or Rothschild hurt Prior.

 

Starting in 2003, when Dusty took over here are Prior's Innings pitched and pitchers per game.

 

2003: 211 113

2004: 119 98

2005 167 104

 

Those number aren't that crazy. If Prior can't throw 100 pitchers per game without getting hurt it isn't going to matter who is managing the club.

 

Wood's numbers look like this

 

2003: 211 110

2004: 140 101

2005: 66 88

 

My point is I don't think it is ALL Dusty/Rothschild's fault. These two guys seem to be extremely brittle. Wood has more of an injury history than Prior so he is a little easier to figure out. Not sure what the deal is with Prior, sure he threw 200+ innings in 2003, but most elite pitchers will throw 200+ innings in a year.

 

Average number of pitches per start doesn't tell the whole story, I'm afraid. It has a lot to do with how many pitches they're being run out there for in certain starts. Just look at the PAP data.

 

In 2003, Prior made 30 starts. Of those 30, 20 were 110 pitches or more. Of those 20, 9 of them were more than 122 pitches. Wood made 32 starts and also had 20 starts over 110 pitches, 8 of those over 122, and 1 of them over 133. Livan Hernandez, widely regarded as the most abused pitcher in baseball because of his "rubber arm," made 17 CAT3+ starts in 2003 (and finished 3rd in PAP - 1-5 was Vazquez, Wood, Livan, Prior, Redman, with Zambrano sitting at 11th).

 

Average pitch counts can be helpful, but to say Dusty and Rothschild aren't highly responsible for Wood and Prior's troubles is ignoring the truth.

 

How come Vazquez, Livan, and Redman have all pitched a lot since then?

 

They aren't injured.

 

But their managers abused them, how can that be?

 

Vasquez ERA:

2003: 3.24

2004: 4.91

2005: 4.42

2006: 4.43

 

Redman ERA:

2003: 3.59

2004: 4.71

2005: 4.90

2006: 5.95

 

Yeah that 2003 abuse seems to have left them in pretty good shape after in the years following. They are really tearing it up.

 

And Livan hasn't been that good since.

[Outshined_One]

How come Vazquez, Livan, and Redman have all pitched a lot since then?

 

They aren't injured.

 

But their managers abused them, how can that be?

 

Have you ever heard of the terms, "outliers" and "exceptions to the rule"?

 

If most guys get overused and abused, it makes sense that they'd start to break down over the course of a season with DL stints, missed starts due to soreness or whatever, and so on. It'd be impossible for them to rank among the most abused pitchers in baseball mostly because their bodies would not be able to stand up to that kind of abuse.

 

Yeah, back in the "good old days", guys would go out and pitch 250 innings a season or whatever. However, advances have thrown a wrench into that. The mound was lowered, the strike zone has been tightened, guys are throwing harder and earlier, and medical science has made it possible for guys who used to flame out in the minors due to various injuries to come back. Tommy John Surgery has been a career-saver for countless pitchers. Expansion has also significantly dilluted the talent base and spread out a number of those guys among various teams.

 

In other words, this is a really bad period of time for managers to find out what guys can take a 250 IP+ load. Very few pitchers in baseball could pitch 250 innings in a season without feeling any after-effects as it is. Some could, yes, but those guys are not the norm.

 

Besides, Redman and Vazquez both had utterly horrible years in 2004 and haven't been the same since then. Hell, there were plenty of rumors flying around New York in 2004 that Vazquez was hiding an arm injury from everyone. Overuse can result in troubling things beyond just injuries.

[impaler_240]

My thought is that both were/are injured.

 

And it's Dusty's/Larry's fault.

 

I'll blame Dusty for some things, but I don't know if I can go as far and say he and/or Rothschild hurt Prior.

 

Starting in 2003, when Dusty took over here are Prior's Innings pitched and pitchers per game.

 

2003: 211 113

2004: 119 98

2005 167 104

 

Those number aren't that crazy. If Prior can't throw 100 pitchers per game without getting hurt it isn't going to matter who is managing the club.

 

Wood's numbers look like this

 

2003: 211 110

2004: 140 101

2005: 66 88

 

My point is I don't think it is ALL Dusty/Rothschild's fault. These two guys seem to be extremely brittle. Wood has more of an injury history than Prior so he is a little easier to figure out. Not sure what the deal is with Prior, sure he threw 200+ innings in 2003, but most elite pitchers will throw 200+ innings in a year.

 

Average number of pitches per start doesn't tell the whole story, I'm afraid. It has a lot to do with how many pitches they're being run out there for in certain starts. Just look at the PAP data.

 

In 2003, Prior made 30 starts. Of those 30, 20 were 110 pitches or more. Of those 20, 9 of them were more than 122 pitches. Wood made 32 starts and also had 20 starts over 110 pitches, 8 of those over 122, and 1 of them over 133. Livan Hernandez, widely regarded as the most abused pitcher in baseball because of his "rubber arm," made 17 CAT3+ starts in 2003 (and finished 3rd in PAP - 1-5 was Vazquez, Wood, Livan, Prior, Redman, with Zambrano sitting at 11th).

 

Average pitch counts can be helpful, but to say Dusty and Rothschild aren't highly responsible for Wood and Prior's troubles is ignoring the truth.

 

How come Vazquez, Livan, and Redman have all pitched a lot since then?

 

They aren't injured.

 

But their managers abused them, how can that be?

 

http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/capblog/2005/03/03/goat.jpg

 

It's nice that you've learned how to insert pictures into your posts, but scapegoating is hardly the right answer here.

 

Wood, Prior, and Z have been some of the most abused pitchers in baseball going back to 2003.

 

So far, they've been lucky with Zambrano.

 

sorry, it was meant to be a joke. :cry:

 

I am one of the first that will agree that Dusty abuses his staff. :wink:

[cubfan1955]

But with Prior and those 211 IP in 2003, it was his first season throwing over 138 innings (his soph year at USC). Given he was 22 for most of that season and that he hadn't thrown anywhere near that many innings before, it would have been nice to see him be pushed a bit slowly rather than immediately go have a 200+ IP season with 113 pitcher per game (the 113 pitches/game is more than Z has ever done, mind you). Young arms should be broken in and can be very fragile when they're throwing more pitches than they have ever done before.

 

And this does ignore the two freak injuries Mark has had.

I can't believe I'm going to defend Dusty and the rest of Cubs management but the people on this board and others would have had a heart attack and probably would have burned Wrigley to the ground if the Cubs had shut Prior down in September with the division title within sight. Everyone would have been screaming for their heads. We can't have it both ways. 2003 is in the past and now we're paying the piper. Such is life.

[CubinNY]

But with Prior and those 211 IP in 2003, it was his first season throwing over 138 innings (his soph year at USC). Given he was 22 for most of that season and that he hadn't thrown anywhere near that many innings before, it would have been nice to see him be pushed a bit slowly rather than immediately go have a 200+ IP season with 113 pitcher per game (the 113 pitches/game is more than Z has ever done, mind you). Young arms should be broken in and can be very fragile when they're throwing more pitches than they have ever done before.

 

And this does ignore the two freak injuries Mark has had.

I can't believe I'm going to defend Dusty and the rest of Cubs management but the people on this board and others would have had a heart attack and probably would have burned Wrigley to the ground if the Cubs had shut Prior down in September with the division title within sight. Everyone would have been screaming for their heads. We can't have it both ways. 2003 is in the past and now we're paying the piper. Such is life.

 

Shut Prior down my big toe. How about not have him pitch meaningless innings in blow out games down the stretch?

 

No one would advocate for Prior to have been shut down. But Prior pitched a lot down the stretch late into the game when the game was well in hand.

 

They are damn lucky they even got that far as Z was done about half way through July. It could be the only reason why he is ptiching now. He didn't pile up the innings b/c he wasn't getting anyone out down the stretch.

 

It's always the little things that Dusty doesn't do that hurts this team.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

But with Prior and those 211 IP in 2003, it was his first season throwing over 138 innings (his soph year at USC). Given he was 22 for most of that season and that he hadn't thrown anywhere near that many innings before, it would have been nice to see him be pushed a bit slowly rather than immediately go have a 200+ IP season with 113 pitcher per game (the 113 pitches/game is more than Z has ever done, mind you). Young arms should be broken in and can be very fragile when they're throwing more pitches than they have ever done before.

 

And this does ignore the two freak injuries Mark has had.

I can't believe I'm going to defend Dusty and the rest of Cubs management but the people on this board and others would have had a heart attack and probably would have burned Wrigley to the ground if the Cubs had shut Prior down in September with the division title within sight. Everyone would have been screaming for their heads. We can't have it both ways. 2003 is in the past and now we're paying the piper. Such is life.

 

I didn't say shut him down, did I?

 

Limit his pitches and innings.

[Bull]

But with Prior and those 211 IP in 2003, it was his first season throwing over 138 innings (his soph year at USC). Given he was 22 for most of that season and that he hadn't thrown anywhere near that many innings before, it would have been nice to see him be pushed a bit slowly rather than immediately go have a 200+ IP season with 113 pitcher per game (the 113 pitches/game is more than Z has ever done, mind you). Young arms should be broken in and can be very fragile when they're throwing more pitches than they have ever done before.

 

And this does ignore the two freak injuries Mark has had.

I can't believe I'm going to defend Dusty and the rest of Cubs management but the people on this board and others would have had a heart attack and probably would have burned Wrigley to the ground if the Cubs had shut Prior down in September with the division title within sight. Everyone would have been screaming for their heads. We can't have it both ways. 2003 is in the past and now we're paying the piper. Such is life.

 

I didn't say shut him down, did I?

 

Limit his pitches and innings.

 

This may be beating a dead horse, but how many times have we seen 7,8,9 run leads and starters left in to pitch 125+ pitches. Craziness.

[impaler_240]

But with Prior and those 211 IP in 2003, it was his first season throwing over 138 innings (his soph year at USC). Given he was 22 for most of that season and that he hadn't thrown anywhere near that many innings before, it would have been nice to see him be pushed a bit slowly rather than immediately go have a 200+ IP season with 113 pitcher per game (the 113 pitches/game is more than Z has ever done, mind you). Young arms should be broken in and can be very fragile when they're throwing more pitches than they have ever done before.

 

And this does ignore the two freak injuries Mark has had.

I can't believe I'm going to defend Dusty and the rest of Cubs management but the people on this board and others would have had a heart attack and probably would have burned Wrigley to the ground if the Cubs had shut Prior down in September with the division title within sight. Everyone would have been screaming for their heads. We can't have it both ways. 2003 is in the past and now we're paying the piper. Such is life.

 

I didn't say shut him down, did I?

 

I have noticed a lot of people like to put words into your mouth on the internets. :lol:

[cubfan1955]

But with Prior and those 211 IP in 2003, it was his first season throwing over 138 innings (his soph year at USC). Given he was 22 for most of that season and that he hadn't thrown anywhere near that many innings before, it would have been nice to see him be pushed a bit slowly rather than immediately go have a 200+ IP season with 113 pitcher per game (the 113 pitches/game is more than Z has ever done, mind you). Young arms should be broken in and can be very fragile when they're throwing more pitches than they have ever done before.

 

And this does ignore the two freak injuries Mark has had.

I can't believe I'm going to defend Dusty and the rest of Cubs management but the people on this board and others would have had a heart attack and probably would have burned Wrigley to the ground if the Cubs had shut Prior down in September with the division title within sight. Everyone would have been screaming for their heads. We can't have it both ways. 2003 is in the past and now we're paying the piper. Such is life.

 

I didn't say shut him down, did I?

 

Limit his pitches and innings.

 

This may be beating a dead horse, but how many times have we seen 7,8,9 run leads and starters left in to pitch 125+ pitches. Craziness.

 

Actually not that many. You just remember them more because it rarely happens the Cubs have a big lead and that includes 2003 to the present. Yes, I remember the playoff game where Dusty left Prior in with a huge lead. Still, it hasn't happened that many times. During the stretch run almost every game was a close one and that is where Prior and Wood racked up a lot of innings. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the biggest reason for the Cubs pitchers abuse is the lack of offense and having to leave the starters in so long because the bullpen sucked. Then this year we finally have a bullpen and can't get the game to them with a lead.

[cubfan1955]

But with Prior and those 211 IP in 2003, it was his first season throwing over 138 innings (his soph year at USC). Given he was 22 for most of that season and that he hadn't thrown anywhere near that many innings before, it would have been nice to see him be pushed a bit slowly rather than immediately go have a 200+ IP season with 113 pitcher per game (the 113 pitches/game is more than Z has ever done, mind you). Young arms should be broken in and can be very fragile when they're throwing more pitches than they have ever done before.

 

And this does ignore the two freak injuries Mark has had.

I can't believe I'm going to defend Dusty and the rest of Cubs management but the people on this board and others would have had a heart attack and probably would have burned Wrigley to the ground if the Cubs had shut Prior down in September with the division title within sight. Everyone would have been screaming for their heads. We can't have it both ways. 2003 is in the past and now we're paying the piper. Such is life.

 

I didn't say shut him down, did I?

 

Limit his pitches and innings.

Although I replied to your post I didn't mean you specifically. If you recall all during the year Wood pitched well but got no run support and the bullpen would blow the game. Down the stretch run Dusty didn't have the faith in his bullpen to go to it which could have lessend the abuse of Prior and Wood. All I'm saying is no one was complaining when we were winning in September 2003. Hindsight is always 20/20. Believe me, I'm all for firing Baker and the whole coaching staff. There is plenty of ammo left in the gun for that.

[CubinNY]

But with Prior and those 211 IP in 2003, it was his first season throwing over 138 innings (his soph year at USC). Given he was 22 for most of that season and that he hadn't thrown anywhere near that many innings before, it would have been nice to see him be pushed a bit slowly rather than immediately go have a 200+ IP season with 113 pitcher per game (the 113 pitches/game is more than Z has ever done, mind you). Young arms should be broken in and can be very fragile when they're throwing more pitches than they have ever done before.

 

And this does ignore the two freak injuries Mark has had.

I can't believe I'm going to defend Dusty and the rest of Cubs management but the people on this board and others would have had a heart attack and probably would have burned Wrigley to the ground if the Cubs had shut Prior down in September with the division title within sight. Everyone would have been screaming for their heads. We can't have it both ways. 2003 is in the past and now we're paying the piper. Such is life.

 

I didn't say shut him down, did I?

 

Limit his pitches and innings.

 

This may be beating a dead horse, but how many times have we seen 7,8,9 run leads and starters left in to pitch 125+ pitches. Craziness.

 

Actually not that many. You just remember them more because it rarely happens the Cubs have a big lead and that includes 2003 to the present. Yes, I remember the playoff game where Dusty left Prior in with a huge lead. Still, it hasn't happened that many times. During the stretch run almost every game was a close one and that is where Prior and Wood racked up a lot of innings. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the biggest reason for the Cubs pitchers abuse is the lack of offense and having to leave the starters in so long because the bullpen sucked. Then this year we finally have a bullpen and can't get the game to them with a lead.

 

Two or three games of throwing 30 to 40 extra pitchers (@ 100 pitches) is exponentially worse then an extra start (@ 100 pitches).

 

I don't have the time to dig up the boxes from 2003 but there were plenty of games from late July on that the starter could have been taken out of.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

But with Prior and those 211 IP in 2003, it was his first season throwing over 138 innings (his soph year at USC). Given he was 22 for most of that season and that he hadn't thrown anywhere near that many innings before, it would have been nice to see him be pushed a bit slowly rather than immediately go have a 200+ IP season with 113 pitcher per game (the 113 pitches/game is more than Z has ever done, mind you). Young arms should be broken in and can be very fragile when they're throwing more pitches than they have ever done before.

 

And this does ignore the two freak injuries Mark has had.

I can't believe I'm going to defend Dusty and the rest of Cubs management but the people on this board and others would have had a heart attack and probably would have burned Wrigley to the ground if the Cubs had shut Prior down in September with the division title within sight. Everyone would have been screaming for their heads. We can't have it both ways. 2003 is in the past and now we're paying the piper. Such is life.

 

I didn't say shut him down, did I?

 

Limit his pitches and innings.

Although I replied to your post I didn't mean you specifically. If you recall all during the year Wood pitched well but got no run support and the bullpen would blow the game. Down the stretch run Dusty didn't have the faith in his bullpen to go to it which could have lessend the abuse of Prior and Wood. All I'm saying is no one was complaining when we were winning in September 2003. Hindsight is always 20/20. Believe me, I'm all for firing Baker and the whole coaching staff. There is plenty of ammo left in the gun for that.

 

Actually, I was complaining about the innings Prior, Wood and Z were getting. Especially Prior and Z since that was their first full season.

 

There were a few games where I thought it was a good time to take any of those 3 up (they were tiring, they had thrown quite a bit, etc.), especially with them due up to hit in the next frame. Dusty let them in and had to take them out in the next inning because they were struggling.

 

I'll look at the boxes and game logs after work.