Nevin to the Cubs

[goonys evil twin]

Okay, so are you telling people not to call Dusty names?

No, only to provide the evidence that supports that he is those things. Saying that someone is stupid and irrational is a pretty difficult one to support. Wouldn't you agree?

 

 

I've considered the possible reasons why Dusty makes the idiotic moves he makes.

Maybe you have, maybe you haven't. Its difficult to know.

 

It all boils down to the same thing, he's not a good manager and he keeps making the same stupid moves over and over.

And you might be right.

 

But then again, there is a lot of evidence to the contrary as well. So wouldn't it be more accurate to say that he makes moves you disagree with and fail to understand and that you think he is a bad manager?

 

Or don't you think that there is any evidence on the other side of your position?

 

This is just another attempt to tell people to stop criticizing the Cubs.

 

Who cares if I say he's an idiot, or that I think he's an idiot but am not completely positive since I don't have all the details? Your request is completely irrational and unwarrented. This is a message board. We are fans. There's nothing wrong with fans calling their manager an idiot when they see him make the same mistakes over and over.

 

I'm going to call Dusty an idiot for doing all the same stupid stuff over and over. I know he's a bad manager. I understand the moves he makes, and I know they are the wrong ones and that he uses the wrong methodology to make those moves.

 

I, nor anybody else, don't need to support my claims that he is stupid and irrational by listing all the reasons why I think he is everytime I make the claim.

 

Dusty Baker is exactly the wrong manager for the Cubs, he has been all along. The sooner people just wake up and admit that fact the better.

[CubsWin]

Okay, so are you telling people not to call Dusty names?

No, only to provide the evidence that supports that he is those things. Saying that someone is stupid and irrational is a pretty difficult one to support. Wouldn't you agree?

 

 

I've considered the possible reasons why Dusty makes the idiotic moves he makes.

Maybe you have, maybe you haven't. Its difficult to know.

 

It all boils down to the same thing, he's not a good manager and he keeps making the same stupid moves over and over.

And you might be right.

 

But then again, there is a lot of evidence to the contrary as well. So wouldn't it be more accurate to say that he makes moves you disagree with and fail to understand and that you think he is a bad manager?

 

Or don't you think that there is any evidence on the other side of your position?

 

When his decisions are consistently contrary to common sense and statistical probablilities, you have to look further than decision to decision analysis. The man makes the same mistakes over and over again, and the fallibility of those decisions is obvious to even the casual observer. Since these decisions have negative results the VAST majority of the time, yet are repeated ad nauseum, how long can you avoid questioning his thought processes and ability to properly analyze what he is seeing on the field?

 

Honestly, when many of the moves he makes fly in the face of incontravertible logic, how can you insinuate that it is just a disagreement based on perception?

 

When he puts low OBP guys at the top of the order, or consistenly plays guys who statistical production is abysmal over guys who are more productive, you can't say we just "don't agree" with his methodology.

 

It's piss poor methodology, and that is NOT debatable.

To the bolded part...

 

If the guy consistently is making different decisions than that of the casual fan, we must first consider that it is because he is considering different factors than we are or weighting those factors differently. I bet he has some reasons for considering those different factors. So those reasons could be faulty or he could just be considering and seeing more factors than we are. If he is seeing and considering more things than we are, then what appears obvious to us, the casual observer, might not be so obvious to the guy making the decision.

 

I'm not questioning that you have done due diligence and looked at the evidence before coming to your conclusion that Baker is simply a bad manager and that that point is beyond debate. But I am questioning the filters through which you have been experiencing that evidence.

 

Many people read a quote of Baker's and see evidence for him being a poor manager while other read the same quote and see it as a benign statement that may have been poorly worded. Many people see him start a low OBP guy at the top of the order and not consider the other options that Baker has had to choose from. About the only other high OBP choices he has had to put at the top of the order have been Walker and Murton. I could create an argument for not playing them there. Can you? If you can, then we can't conclude that Baker's logic or methodology is "piss poor".

 

So we must first understand and then compensate for that we often experience life through filters that color our experience of what is evidence for or against something. Don't we?

[CubsWin]

Okay, so are you telling people not to call Dusty names?

No, only to provide the evidence that supports that he is those things. Saying that someone is stupid and irrational is a pretty difficult one to support. Wouldn't you agree?

 

 

I've considered the possible reasons why Dusty makes the idiotic moves he makes.

Maybe you have, maybe you haven't. Its difficult to know.

 

It all boils down to the same thing, he's not a good manager and he keeps making the same stupid moves over and over.

And you might be right.

 

But then again, there is a lot of evidence to the contrary as well. So wouldn't it be more accurate to say that he makes moves you disagree with and fail to understand and that you think he is a bad manager?

 

Or don't you think that there is any evidence on the other side of your position?

 

This is just another attempt to tell people to stop criticizing the Cubs.

 

Who cares if I say he's an idiot, or that I think he's an idiot but am not completely positive since I don't have all the details? Your request is completely irrational and unwarrented. This is a message board. We are fans. There's nothing wrong with fans calling their manager an idiot when they see him make the same mistakes over and over.

 

I'm going to call Dusty an idiot for doing all the same stupid stuff over and over. I know he's a bad manager. I understand the moves he makes, and I know they are the wrong ones and that he uses the wrong methodology to make those moves.

 

I, nor anybody else, don't need to support my claims that he is stupid and irrational by listing all the reasons why I think he is everytime I make the claim.

 

Dusty Baker is exactly the wrong manager for the Cubs, he has been all along. The sooner people just wake up and admit that fact the better.

Okay, don't consider all the evidence. I don't care. It only weakens your argument, not mine.

 

And clearly, you don't understand what my argument is. My post was an attempt to tell people to stop criticizing the Cubs?!? Did you even read it? What a joke. For like the 4th time this thread, I'm saying criticize away, or for that matter praise away, but if you want people to consider it valid, then it should at least hold up under scrutiny.

 

Under scrutiny, I believe there is a very good argument for Baker being a poor manager. I believe there is also a lot evidence supporting the contrary. I don't believe there is a good argument for Baker being stupid and irrational as a person. Some of his moves may accurately be called that.

 

Does it sound like I'm trying to get people to stop criticizing the Cubs? Is that the best retort you got, Goony?

[Careless]

I think it is very clear what I'm saying. I couldn't be saying it more plainly, if you are going to make the bold statement that someone is stupid and irrational, not that some of his moves seem stupid and irrational, but that the person is stupid and irrational, then you either have to know a whole lot more than the manager you are criticizing or you aren't looking into the situations you are criticizing very deeply.

 

Boy, it sure seems real simple to me, just consider all the possible reasons why a manager would have done what he did before labeling him stupid, irrational, an idiot, etc. I do it all the time. I posted an example of this one page earlier, surrounding the Womack/Perez issue that some people were criticizing Baker for. I, too, at first found the choice to start Perez odd, but when I did some research and considered that there may be reasons that I would never know about like the possibility of Womack being sore or something, there was enough reasonable doubt to not conclude that Baker was an idiot or that his brain is somehow deficient.

We know why baker claims to have wanted to avoid pitching to Lenny harris. I doubt there were dozens of injuries/illnesses/sneezing attacks preventing pitchers other than Remlinger from facing lefties. there is such a massive body of evidence here (some of which we have Dusty's alleged reasoning for) that I don't see how you can dismiss it.

Frankly, I don't know if dusty is generally stupid or irrational. I'd hope that when I say something like I did about a player/manager in this context (as opposed to say, "you can't arrest me, I'm a basketball player" thread), people would understand that it's a comment about their function as a player/manager. I do know that he is stupid and/or irrational as a manager. A few moves he makes with reasons that later turn out to be rational (or moves that were irrational but succeeded) do not change that fact.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Nevin with a .000/1.000/.000 line as a Cub. Still no power :x

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, that was terrible.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Nevin with a .000/1.000/.000 line as a Cub. Still no power :x

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, that was terrible.

 

You're complaining about a 1.000 OPS?!?! :evil:

[NCCubFan]

I have great confidence in my beloved Cubs to stave off last place and only lose 95-100 games.

What an accomplishment. Contract extensions for everybody.

[Careless]

I have great confidence in my beloved Cubs to stave off last place and only lose 95-100 games.

What an accomplishment. Contract extensions for everybody.

Boo for having cardinals of any sort in your sig

[Andy]

I have great confidence in my beloved Cubs to stave off last place and only lose 95-100 games.

What an accomplishment. Contract extensions for everybody.

Boo for having cardinals of any sort in your sig

As a Ball State student I wholeheartedly disagree!

[Careless]

I have great confidence in my beloved Cubs to stave off last place and only lose 95-100 games.

What an accomplishment. Contract extensions for everybody.

Boo for having cardinals of any sort in your sig

As a Ball State student I wholeheartedly disagree!

And yet, there's a complete lack of such birds in your sig.

[Andy]

I have great confidence in my beloved Cubs to stave off last place and only lose 95-100 games.

What an accomplishment. Contract extensions for everybody.

Boo for having cardinals of any sort in your sig

As a Ball State student I wholeheartedly disagree!

And yet, there's a complete lack of such birds in your sig.

Not anymore :D

[Careless]

I have great confidence in my beloved Cubs to stave off last place and only lose 95-100 games.

What an accomplishment. Contract extensions for everybody.

Boo for having cardinals of any sort in your sig

As a Ball State student I wholeheartedly disagree!

And yet, there's a complete lack of such birds in your sig.

Not anymore :D

A man of [revolting] convictions. :wink:

[CUBZ99]

Nevin with a .000/1.000/.000 line as a Cub. Still no power :x

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, that was terrible.

 

You're complaining about a 1.000 OPS?!?! :evil:

 

No, I'm sure that he is more upset about the walk. Tiger, hates it when players try to clog the bases. :wink:

[A New Era]

Welcome to the Cubs Nevin. 2 run Home Run in today's game. You've just done more than Hairston has in his whole 06' with the Cubs.

 

well except slide to first on every grounder.

[Sammy Sofa]

That last part deserves to be screamed from the rooftops, not whispered in secret.

[bhogg]

Smooth move by baker not starting nevin at 1b.

 

This blows my [expletive] mind. This team needs a little more power. Nevin gives it to them.

 

For crying out loud, sit womack, move walker to 2b, and start nevin.

 

This is nuts!

 

 

 

I guess Baker got really confused when he asked Nevin to play 2b and phil replied "uhhh, I've never played there. . . "

[srbin84]

Smooth move by baker not starting nevin at 1b.

 

This blows my [expletive] mind. This team needs a little more power. Nevin gives it to them.

 

For crying out loud, sit womack, move walker to 2b, and start nevin.

 

This is nuts!

 

 

 

I guess Baker got really confused when he asked Nevin to play 2b and phil replied "uhhh, I've never played there. . . "

 

I have no problem putting Womack in there instead of Nevin. He's playing great for us and there is a righty on the mound.

[bhogg]

But in a non-bake world, the lineup might look like:

 

Pierre

Murton

Walker

Nevin

Ramirez

Barrett

Jones

Cedeno

Pitcher

 

 

I, too like Womack, but in this lineup, he doesn't have what we need (run producer).

[CubsWin]

Smooth move by baker not starting nevin at 1b.

 

This blows my [expletive] mind. This team needs a little more power. Nevin gives it to them.

 

For crying out loud, sit womack, move walker to 2b, and start nevin.

 

This is nuts!

 

 

 

I guess Baker got really confused when he asked Nevin to play 2b and phil replied "uhhh, I've never played there. . . "

 

I have no problem putting Womack in there instead of Nevin. He's playing great for us and there is a righty on the mound.

bhogg, Nevin was brought in specifically to hit against lefties as his splits support. He will play against some righties too, but not all of them.

[bhogg]

In other words, you are saying the Cubs deem Womack a better hitter than Nevin?

 

By doing what they are doing, that is what I feel like they are saying. It's nuts.

 

Nevin provides at least the threat of thunder. We have enough womack-type hitters (not taking anything away from Womack) in Cedeno and Pierre.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

In other words, you are saying the Cubs deem Womack a better hitter than Nevin?

 

By doing what they are doing, that is what I feel like they are saying. It's nuts.

 

Nevin provides at least the threat of thunder. We have enough womack-type hitters (not taking anything away from Womack) in Cedeno and Pierre.

 

Nevin doesn't provide anything against RHP.

 

2006: .197/.298/.371/.669, 151 PA's

2005: .253/.285/.387/.672, 266 PA's

 

Womack's garbage too, but he's gotten off to a hot start(10 for 28 v. RHP) so there's potential for that to continue.

[CubsWin]

In other words, you are saying the Cubs deem Womack a better hitter than Nevin?

Against some right-handers, yes. Especially in the beginning when Nevin is still working on his defense. IIRC, he only played one game in the field for the Rangers, so he needs to brush up. He may face more righties later on.

[ToThePain]

I have great confidence in my beloved Cubs to stave off last place and only lose 95-100 games.

What an accomplishment. Contract extensions for everybody.

Boo for having cardinals of any sort in your sig

As a Ball State student I wholeheartedly disagree!

 

Me too, Ball State University Class of 1995 right here. Needing to get myself down to the Heorot sometime soon.

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

I have great confidence in my beloved Cubs to stave off last place and only lose 95-100 games.

What an accomplishment. Contract extensions for everybody.

Boo for having cardinals of any sort in your sig

As a Ball State student I wholeheartedly disagree!

 

Me too, Ball State University Class of 1995 right here. Needing to get myself down to the Heorot sometime soon.

 

Hey Dave here. Me too! Class of 1969.

 

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j163/Niner74/DavidLetterman.jpg

[NCCubFan]

I have great confidence in my beloved Cubs to stave off last place and only lose 95-100 games.

What an accomplishment. Contract extensions for everybody.

Boo for having cardinals of any sort in your sig

As a Ball State student I wholeheartedly disagree!

 

Me too, Ball State University Class of 1995 right here. Needing to get myself down to the Heorot sometime soon.

 

Hey Dave here. Me too! Class of 1969.

 

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j163/Niner74/DavidLetterman.jpg

Class of 1982 for me, with a Masters degree in 1983. I was there when Ray McCallum was playing basketball there. Their first-ever appearance in the NCAA basketball tournament was during my junior year. And both Indiana State (with Larry Bird) and DePaul (with Mark Aguirre) played at University Arena (where the home games were played at the time).