You cannot underestimate the importance of speed

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

I think there are some things upon which we can all agree:

 

1) OBP is good

2) Power is good

3) Speed is good

4) Defense is good

5) Quality pitching is good

 

it is the weight given to these different items that is under discussion. Nobody is dismissing any of them as being irrelavent. However, when building a ball team, I'd put speed on the bottom of this list. Rather handily, as well.

 

It depends on what your team payroll is. Defense and speed move up the list with a tight payroll (which limits the pool of available players). OBP has become more expensive over the last couple years. Defense and speed have become cheaper, where they were initially overvalued, especially defense.

And yet Furcal gets an outrageous contract because of what? Speed & Defense.

 

No. Furcal got that contract b/c a new GM wanted to make a splash. He was the best FA position player available.

okaaayyy, what made him the best FA position player available? Answer without using the words speed, leadoff or defense, please.

 

It's not that simple.

 

A leadoff hitter is not someone that just has speed (or defense). It's someone who can get on base (consistently) at a decent clip with speed. That's pretty rare. Availability increases the price. You may not value that type of player, but others do. Throw in good defense and you get ridiculous FA offers.

 

Look at guys like Bynum and Pagan. Tons of speed. Can't even make other teams 25 man rosters. We didn't even have to trade for Pagan, just purchased his contract. So yes, speed isn't valued that highly.

 

Look at the A's, notorious bargain shoppers. Why is it that they have 3 CFers patroling the OF and a very solid defense? I thought power trumped speed and defense? It's all relative to what's available and cheap. Power and OBP aren't that cheap anymore.

[Guest]

I think there are some things upon which we can all agree:

 

1) OBP is good

2) Power is good

3) Speed is good

4) Defense is good

5) Quality pitching is good

 

it is the weight given to these different items that is under discussion. Nobody is dismissing any of them as being irrelavent. However, when building a ball team, I'd put speed on the bottom of this list. Rather handily, as well.

 

It depends on what your team payroll is. Defense and speed move up the list with a tight payroll (which limits the pool of available players). OBP has become more expensive over the last couple years. Defense and speed have become cheaper, where they were initially overvalued, especially defense.

And yet Furcal gets an outrageous contract because of what? Speed & Defense.

 

No. Furcal got that contract b/c a new GM wanted to make a splash. He was the best FA position player available.

okaaayyy, what made him the best FA position player available? Answer without using the words speed, leadoff or defense, please.

 

It's not that simple.

 

A leadoff hitter is not someone that just has speed (or defense). It's someone who can get on base (consistently) at a decent clip with speed. That's pretty rare. Availability increases the price. You may not value that type of player, but others do. Throw in good defense and you get ridiculous FA offers.

 

Look at guys like Bynum and Pagan. Tons of speed. Can't even make other teams 25 man rosters. We didn't even have to trade for Pagan, just purchased his contract. So yes, speed isn't valued that highly.

 

Look at the A's, notorious bargain shoppers. Why is it that they have 3 CFers patroling the OF and a very solid defense? I thought power trumped speed and defense? It's all relative to what's available and cheap. Power and OBP aren't that cheap anymore.

Without the speed and defense, Furcal sits on a bench somewhere. With the speed and defense (combined with the OBP), he's the #1 FA and gets paid a ridiculous contract. It is the speed and defense that is the difference here. Without the OBP, he's Jose Reyes and still gets insane amounts of publicity (and an insane contract when he goes FA, even though his OBP might still suck).

 

You seem to be at once saying that speed and defense are undervalued and yet what made Furcal so special that he was the #1 FA and earned him a huge contract. I can't believe you don't see the conflict in your position.

[SoonerCubFan]

I think there are some things upon which we can all agree:

 

1) OBP is good

2) Power is good

3) Speed is good

4) Defense is good

5) Quality pitching is good

 

it is the weight given to these different items that is under discussion. Nobody is dismissing any of them as being irrelavent. However, when building a ball team, I'd put speed on the bottom of this list. Rather handily, as well.

 

Fascinating discussion. After nearly 4 decades of watching the Cubs eschew several of these items and focus more on power with occasional emphasis on quality pitching, I must say it is refreshing to see the more balanced team in terms of power AND speed this team has, along with a view toward more OBP at the top and better team D. I especially like the shift away from high K batters.

 

As for this list I'd say that with the volatile nature of Wrigley playing conditions, the list is similarly volatile. Previous Cub teams were never built offensively to deal with all types of conditions. Of course, OBP will always be key no matter what conditions or where the games are played, but yesterday's game should have been a prime example of how speed CONTRIBUTES to not making outs, and is not quantifiable by stats. It will be interesting to see if this team can indeed still provide some runs on days when the HR is not a viable option.

 

Oh, and I'd personally break the quality pitching into starting vs bullpen, and place a quality bullpen at the very top of my ranking of importance during the regular season, and quality starting at the top in the playoffs.

[Guest]

I think there are some things upon which we can all agree:

 

1) OBP is good

2) Power is good

3) Speed is good

4) Defense is good

5) Quality pitching is good

 

it is the weight given to these different items that is under discussion. Nobody is dismissing any of them as being irrelavent. However, when building a ball team, I'd put speed on the bottom of this list. Rather handily, as well.

 

It depends on what your team payroll is. Defense and speed move up the list with a tight payroll (which limits the pool of available players). OBP has become more expensive over the last couple years. Defense and speed have become cheaper, where they were initially overvalued, especially defense.

And yet Furcal gets an outrageous contract because of what? Speed & Defense.

 

No. Furcal got that contract b/c a new GM wanted to make a splash. He was the best FA position player available.

okaaayyy, what made him the best FA position player available? Answer without using the words speed, leadoff or defense, please.

 

It's not that simple.

 

A leadoff hitter is not someone that just has speed (or defense). It's someone who can get on base (consistently) at a decent clip with speed. That's pretty rare. Availability increases the price. You may not value that type of player, but others do. Throw in good defense and you get ridiculous FA offers.

 

Look at guys like Bynum and Pagan. Tons of speed. Can't even make other teams 25 man rosters. We didn't even have to trade for Pagan, just purchased his contract. So yes, speed isn't valued that highly.

 

Look at the A's, notorious bargain shoppers. Why is it that they have 3 CFers patroling the OF and a very solid defense? I thought power trumped speed and defense? It's all relative to what's available and cheap. Power and OBP aren't that cheap anymore.

The A's will only have that alignement on certain days. Most of the time (at least most of the time when Thomas is available to DH), they'll get more power into the lineup by putting Swisher back in the OF and sitting Payton while Dan Johnson plays 1B.

[Guest]

I think there are some things upon which we can all agree:

 

1) OBP is good

2) Power is good

3) Speed is good

4) Defense is good

5) Quality pitching is good

 

it is the weight given to these different items that is under discussion. Nobody is dismissing any of them as being irrelavent. However, when building a ball team, I'd put speed on the bottom of this list. Rather handily, as well.

 

Fascinating discussion. After nearly 4 decades of watching the Cubs eschew several of these items and focus more on power with occasional emphasis on quality pitching, I must say it is refreshing to see the more balanced team in terms of power AND speed this team has, along with a view toward more OBP at the top and better team D. I especially like the shift away from high K batters.

 

As for this list I'd say that with the volatile nature of Wrigley playing conditions, the list is similarly volatile. Previous Cub teams were never built offensively to deal with all types of conditions. Of course, OBP will always be key no matter what conditions or where the games are played, but yesterday's game should have been a prime example of how speed CONTRIBUTES to not making outs, and is not quantifiable by stats. It will be interesting to see if this team can indeed still provide some runs on days when the HR is not a viable option.

 

Oh, and I'd personally break the quality pitching into starting vs bullpen, and place a quality bullpen at the very top of my ranking of importance during the regular season, and quality starting at the top in the playoffs.

If speed contributes to not making outs, it will be reflected in higher batting averages and OBP. Not making outs is a very measureable thing.

[Guest]

Oh, and I'd personally break the quality pitching into starting vs bullpen, and place a quality bullpen at the very top of my ranking of importance during the regular season, and quality starting at the top in the playoffs.

Oh boy, whole new tangent here.

 

Lousy starting pitching makes a strong pen worthless. If the opposing team has already scored 8 runs before the pen ever gets a shot, a strong pen is worthless. First you have to build at least good starting pitching, then a quality pen can put a team over the top. But the starting pitching is the foundation, not the other way around.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

I think there are some things upon which we can all agree:

 

1) OBP is good

2) Power is good

3) Speed is good

4) Defense is good

5) Quality pitching is good

 

it is the weight given to these different items that is under discussion. Nobody is dismissing any of them as being irrelavent. However, when building a ball team, I'd put speed on the bottom of this list. Rather handily, as well.

 

It depends on what your team payroll is. Defense and speed move up the list with a tight payroll (which limits the pool of available players). OBP has become more expensive over the last couple years. Defense and speed have become cheaper, where they were initially overvalued, especially defense.

And yet Furcal gets an outrageous contract because of what? Speed & Defense.

 

No. Furcal got that contract b/c a new GM wanted to make a splash. He was the best FA position player available.

okaaayyy, what made him the best FA position player available? Answer without using the words speed, leadoff or defense, please.

 

It's not that simple.

 

A leadoff hitter is not someone that just has speed (or defense). It's someone who can get on base (consistently) at a decent clip with speed. That's pretty rare. Availability increases the price. You may not value that type of player, but others do. Throw in good defense and you get ridiculous FA offers.

 

Look at guys like Bynum and Pagan. Tons of speed. Can't even make other teams 25 man rosters. We didn't even have to trade for Pagan, just purchased his contract. So yes, speed isn't valued that highly.

 

Look at the A's, notorious bargain shoppers. Why is it that they have 3 CFers patroling the OF and a very solid defense? I thought power trumped speed and defense? It's all relative to what's available and cheap. Power and OBP aren't that cheap anymore.

Without the speed and defense, Furcal sits on a bench somewhere. With the speed and defense (combined with the OBP), he's the #1 FA and gets paid a ridiculous contract. It is the speed and defense that is the difference here. Without the OBP, he's Jose Reyes and still gets insane amounts of publicity (and an insane contract when he goes FA, even though his OBP might still suck).

 

You seem to be at once saying that speed and defense are undervalued and yet what made Furcal so special that he was the #1 FA and earned him a huge contract. I can't believe you don't see the conflict in your position.

 

There is no conflict (Darth Vader impression). Speed, defense, and OBP are all separate quantities. Combine them together and you get value. Like I said, OBP is becoming valuable. Add OBP with speed and defense and you get something special. Speed by itself is not that valuable, as indicated by example with Pagan and Bynum. Defense is not that valuable. Guys like Neifi (that contract is way above what any other team would pay him) and Cedeno are a dime a dozen.

[Guest]

There is no conflict (Darth Vader impression). Speed, defense, and OBP are all separate quantities. Combine them together and you get value. Like I said, OBP is becoming valuable. Add OBP with speed and defense and you get something special. Speed by itself is not that valuable, as indicated by example with Pagan and Bynum. Defense is not that valuable. Guys like Neifi (that contract is way above what any other team would pay him) and Cedeno are a dime a dozen.

What, pray tell, does Pierre bring other than speed, durability and intangilbles? How about Podsednik? Reyes? Carl Crawford?

 

These guys are not highly valued because of their OBP or even their defense in most cases. They are all overhyped, overpaid (except Reyes) and overrated because of their speed, pure and simple. It is the single most overrated factor in the game.

 

I'll agree that defense is more important than many feel.

[CubDad4Ever]

Why, did jack wilson , cabrera, a gone, evertt etc get the contracts they did if d is not valuable. Coach l

[goonys evil twin]

Why, did jack wilson , cabrera, a gone, evertt etc get the contracts they did if d is not valuable. Coach l

 

Lots of GMs like throwing other people's money around.

[RynoRules]

Matt's article is very good, and its true value is buried in the middle of it. Matt concludes:

 

Finally, let’s say that small ball teams can’t hit many home runs (HR). After all, a team that hits with power and does all the little things well isn’t really manufacturing runs; it’s just a great offense.

 

Bingo.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

There is no conflict (Darth Vader impression). Speed, defense, and OBP are all separate quantities. Combine them together and you get value. Like I said, OBP is becoming valuable. Add OBP with speed and defense and you get something special. Speed by itself is not that valuable, as indicated by example with Pagan and Bynum. Defense is not that valuable. Guys like Neifi (that contract is way above what any other team would pay him) and Cedeno are a dime a dozen.

What, pray tell, does Pierre bring other than speed, durability and intangilbles? How about Podsednik? Reyes? Carl Crawford?

 

These guys are not highly valued because of their OBP or even their defense in most cases. They are all overhyped, overpaid (except Reyes) and overrated because of their speed, pure and simple. It is the single most overrated factor in the game.

 

I'll agree that defense is more important than many feel.

 

Speed is overvalued in some cases, but not in general. It's not like guys who can pitch left handed. :lol:

 

It's not speed that makes those guys overvalued. It's the "leadoff hitter" tag or potential. Old schoolers love that. Disrupt the hitter. A good example of that was Harang vs. Murton in the 1st inning yesterday. Harange threw over to 1st several times to make sure Jones wouldn't take 2nd (1st and 3rd at the time). Murton saw quite a few fastballs. Take concentration off the hitter on onto the baserunners and it's more likely the pitcher will miss his spot. Murton takes Harang deep for 3 runs. Big time knock, especially after that Barrett line out DP almost sunk a big inning (bases juiced, no outs).

 

The big problem with Pods is sticking him in LF (same with Crawford). Huge waste of power potential. Reyes is ok b/c you don't expect much out of SS. Speed isn't the end all, but some teams do overvalue it. The market, in general, does not.

[Guest]

There is no conflict (Darth Vader impression). Speed, defense, and OBP are all separate quantities. Combine them together and you get value. Like I said, OBP is becoming valuable. Add OBP with speed and defense and you get something special. Speed by itself is not that valuable, as indicated by example with Pagan and Bynum. Defense is not that valuable. Guys like Neifi (that contract is way above what any other team would pay him) and Cedeno are a dime a dozen.

What, pray tell, does Pierre bring other than speed, durability and intangilbles? How about Podsednik? Reyes? Carl Crawford?

 

These guys are not highly valued because of their OBP or even their defense in most cases. They are all overhyped, overpaid (except Reyes) and overrated because of their speed, pure and simple. It is the single most overrated factor in the game.

 

I'll agree that defense is more important than many feel.

 

Speed is overvalued in some cases, but not in general. It's not like guys who can pitch left handed. :lol:

 

It's not speed that makes those guys overvalued. It's the "leadoff hitter" tag or potential. Old schoolers love that. Disrupt the hitter. A good example of that was Harang vs. Murton in the 1st inning yesterday. Harange threw over to 1st several times to make sure Jones wouldn't take 2nd (1st and 3rd at the time). Murton saw quite a few fastballs. Take concentration off the hitter on onto the baserunners and it's more likely the pitcher will miss his spot. Murton takes Harang deep for 3 runs. Big time knock, especially after that Barrett line out DP almost sunk a big inning (bases juiced, no outs).

 

The big problem with Pods is sticking him in LF (same with Crawford). Huge waste of power potential. Reyes is ok b/c you don't expect much out of SS. Speed isn't the end all, but some teams do overvalue it. The market, in general, does not.

The market for any player, in general, is the highest bidder. If there are several teams that overvalue speed and will overpay for it, then the market, in general, overvalues speed.

[SoonerCubFan]

I think there are some things upon which we can all agree:

 

1) OBP is good

2) Power is good

3) Speed is good

4) Defense is good

5) Quality pitching is good

 

it is the weight given to these different items that is under discussion. Nobody is dismissing any of them as being irrelavent. However, when building a ball team, I'd put speed on the bottom of this list. Rather handily, as well.

 

Fascinating discussion. After nearly 4 decades of watching the Cubs eschew several of these items and focus more on power with occasional emphasis on quality pitching, I must say it is refreshing to see the more balanced team in terms of power AND speed this team has, along with a view toward more OBP at the top and better team D. I especially like the shift away from high K batters.

 

As for this list I'd say that with the volatile nature of Wrigley playing conditions, the list is similarly volatile. Previous Cub teams were never built offensively to deal with all types of conditions. Of course, OBP will always be key no matter what conditions or where the games are played, but yesterday's game should have been a prime example of how speed CONTRIBUTES to not making outs, and is not quantifiable by stats. It will be interesting to see if this team can indeed still provide some runs on days when the HR is not a viable option.

 

Oh, and I'd personally break the quality pitching into starting vs bullpen, and place a quality bullpen at the very top of my ranking of importance during the regular season, and quality starting at the top in the playoffs.

If speed contributes to not making outs, it will be reflected in higher batting averages and OBP. Not making outs is a very measureable thing.

 

Not always. If the other team fails to turn a DP, or a runner gets thrown out at the plate on a hit (as happened far too often with recent teams), those are not measured by BA or OBP. If a runner advances an extra base and is able to convert an ensuing fly out into a run instead of staying put at 2B - not quantifiable. If speed contributes to hurrying a play into an error, no out is made but OBP and BA go down.

 

Again, of course being on base comes first, but finally having the ability to use speed as a tool is a welcome addition.

[Guest]

I think there are some things upon which we can all agree:

 

1) OBP is good

2) Power is good

3) Speed is good

4) Defense is good

5) Quality pitching is good

 

it is the weight given to these different items that is under discussion. Nobody is dismissing any of them as being irrelavent. However, when building a ball team, I'd put speed on the bottom of this list. Rather handily, as well.

 

Fascinating discussion. After nearly 4 decades of watching the Cubs eschew several of these items and focus more on power with occasional emphasis on quality pitching, I must say it is refreshing to see the more balanced team in terms of power AND speed this team has, along with a view toward more OBP at the top and better team D. I especially like the shift away from high K batters.

 

As for this list I'd say that with the volatile nature of Wrigley playing conditions, the list is similarly volatile. Previous Cub teams were never built offensively to deal with all types of conditions. Of course, OBP will always be key no matter what conditions or where the games are played, but yesterday's game should have been a prime example of how speed CONTRIBUTES to not making outs, and is not quantifiable by stats. It will be interesting to see if this team can indeed still provide some runs on days when the HR is not a viable option.

 

Oh, and I'd personally break the quality pitching into starting vs bullpen, and place a quality bullpen at the very top of my ranking of importance during the regular season, and quality starting at the top in the playoffs.

If speed contributes to not making outs, it will be reflected in higher batting averages and OBP. Not making outs is a very measureable thing.

 

Not always. If the other team fails to turn a DP, or a runner gets thrown out at the plate on a hit (as happened far too often with recent teams), those are not measured by BA or OBP. If a runner advances an extra base and is able to convert an ensuing fly out into a run instead of staying put at 2B - not quantifiable. If speed contributes to hurrying a play into an error, no out is made but OBP and BA go down.

 

Again, of course being on base comes first, but finally having the ability to use speed as a tool is a welcome addition.

A welcome addition? Sure.

 

As much as a difference maker as being able to smash a double into the wind and drive a runner home from first? No. As much a difference maker as a three run homer? No. As much a difference maker as a standout defender at SS? No. As much a difference maker as great pitching? no. As much a difference maker as having a lineup of .350+ OBP guys? not even close.

 

Speed matters, sure. It just doesn't matter nearly as much as the other things on the list.

[abuck1220]

i think speed is more important than chemistry, if that makes anybody feel better.

[CubDad4Ever]

Tim, dumb question 201 from me. Did you start this site. Coach L

[Guest]

Tim, dumb question 201 from me. Did you start this site. Coach L

Yep.

[CubDad4Ever]

I very much appreciate , the work you have done , Great resource and wonderful venue to articulate feelings on the team that carries our passion . Thanks and keep up the great work . Coach L

[anemic offense]

It played a HUGE factor in today's game, and its presence should be prevalent throughout the season. Stats can be a great measure of one's performance, but it doesn't do many facets a great deal of justice. It's not just the ability to score with speed that's important, its being able to use it in certain situations thereby manipulating runs (in close games) which is. IMO, it will win us a substantial amount of games this season.

 

But speed is reflected quite well in the traditional stats. It's what gives Jaun Pierre a a higher batting average than a pitcher. It allows Jaun Pierre to play CF and thus stay in the major leagues. It gives Jaun Pierre an ISO above .10 because he can leg out XBHs.

 

Baseball is uniquely able to be measured (as opposed to an offensive lineman's contribution). If you have no statistical basis for something in baseball, it's the Loch Ness Monster.

 

Not really. Things like 1st to 3rds, or staying out of the DP don't show up in a box score. The same can be said for WHEN Juan steals a base, or when he lays down a bunt. If done successfully, these things are much more important in close games than in a blowout.

 

This was a MAJOR problem last year. Not only did this team not score ENOUGH runs, they were extremely poor at gettin them when they counted. This team was great at piling on the runs when scoring 10+, but they were rather inept at scoring when it was close. I think this team's added abilities to bunt, steal, hit and run, go 1st to from first to third, and stay out of the double play will help us in close games. But, its not going to solve the problem all by itself.

[BigbadB]

The good news is the Cubs are currently on pace to walk 1134 times this season. Even if that number cuts in half over the course of the season, I'd still be pleased with the improvement in patience and OBP.

 

Hey, and they have speed!!!!

[Monco]

The good news is the Cubs are currently on pace to walk 1134 times this season. Even if that number cuts in half over the course of the season, I'd still be pleased with the improvement in patience and OBP.

 

Hey, and they have speed!!!!

Murtons on pace for 162 homers and Scott Eyre is on pace to pitch 324 innings.With Dusty the second one is probably realistic.

[Rerisen]

I love that we have Pierre leading off. And its great that he has speed. But if speed is not your thing he has a .390 OBP in day games the last 5 years or so (IIHC). So what's not to like? :)

[Monco]

I love that we have Pierre leading off. And its great that he has speed. But if speed is not your thing he has a .390 OBP in day games the last 5 years or so (IIHC). So what's not to like? :)

His arm.

[Gunned]

[ How about Podsednik? Reyes? Carl Crawford?

 

These guys are not highly valued because of their OBP or even their defense in most cases. They are all overhyped, overpaid (except Reyes) and overrated because of their speed, pure and simple. It is the single most overrated factor in the game.

 

I'll agree that defense is more important than many feel.

 

I'd probably say that Crawford is a little different, since he seems to be developing some power, while guys like Podsednik and Reyes have almost none. I know his primary asset is his speed, but he had an .800 OPS last year and it seems that he could eventually blossom into a guy who can hit 20 homers and steal 50 bases.

 

Just a minor quibble, I guess.