Baker on Cedeno in suntimes

[Mizzou]

SHOW ME AN INSULT OF A PERSON.

 

What's with the shouting all of a sudden?

 

I don't know if it's an "agenda" but I'd qualify it as a propensity to misrepresent stories and quotes to fit one's viewpoint.

 

That's an insult.

 

Sorry bout the shouting. I'm trying to quit smoking and this thread is aggravating my nerves.

 

And whom specifically am I insulting? Or am I attacking a viewpoint? The viewpoint that Chicken Littles everything Neifi does? I don't recall ever mentioning a poster by name or by quote, therefore I can't be attacking a poster.

 

It wasn't an attack of an individual poster, but rather a group of posters.

 

Good luck with the no smoking thing. I attempted to quit not that long ago and my wife went and bought me a pack just to shut me up.

 

OT: Do the laser to the ear thing for $300. I know several people who have had amazing success wuth it.

300?! I paid 80 for it.

[BigbadB]

OT: Do the laser to the ear thing for $300. I know several people who have had amazing success wuth it.

 

I've never even heard of that, and I'm not sure I want to know what that is. :shock:

 

Bad timing anyway. I'm leaving for Vegas tomorrow for a week. I smoke like a chimney there, because I can. :roll: [-(

[badger1679666666]

SHOW ME AN INSULT OF A PERSON.

 

What's with the shouting all of a sudden?

 

I don't know if it's an "agenda" but I'd qualify it as a propensity to misrepresent stories and quotes to fit one's viewpoint.

 

That's an insult.

 

Sorry bout the shouting. I'm trying to quit smoking and this thread is aggravating my nerves.

 

And whom specifically am I insulting? Or am I attacking a viewpoint? The viewpoint that Chicken Littles everything Neifi does? I don't recall ever mentioning a poster by name or by quote, therefore I can't be attacking a poster.

 

It wasn't an attack of an individual poster, but rather a group of posters.

 

Good luck with the no smoking thing. I attempted to quit not that long ago and my wife went and bought me a pack just to shut me up. I was starting to unravel a bit in that long 9th inning last night also. Petco doesn't allow any smoking anywhere on the stadium grounds.

 

And how is that working? People are smoking everywhere now instead of in designated areas. Great plan! Not me, of course. I respected their rules last night.

 

I disagree that's any attack of person, it may be an attack of a group think though.

 

And Thank you, I've gone 5-10 days at a time not smoking, but the minute I have a beer, it's all over.

[BigbadB]

It wasn't an attack of an individual poster, but rather a group of posters.

 

Good luck with the no smoking thing. I attempted to quit not that long ago and my wife went and bought me a pack just to shut me up. I was starting to unravel a bit in that long 9th inning last night also. Petco doesn't allow any smoking anywhere on the stadium grounds.

 

And how is that working? People are smoking everywhere now instead of in designated areas. Great plan! Not me, of course. I respected their rules last night.

 

I disagree that's any attack of person, it may be an attack of a group think though.

 

And Thank you, I've gone 5-10 days at a time not smoking, but the minute I have a beer, it's all over.

 

Yeah, I don't believe I ever said you attacked an individual poster.

 

I feel horrible for the stadium security people. Instead of watching for fights and drunkeness, they have to run around like chickens with their heads cut off telling people to put out their cigarettes. I'm thinking the smoking ban is going to go over like a lead balloon, with much worse results than a designated smoking area. 29yearsloyal and I just shook our heads in amazement of how poor of an idea this was.

[badger1679666666]

 

Yeah, I don't believe I ever said you attacked an individual poster.

 

I feel horrible for the stadium security people. Instead of watching for fights and drunkeness, they have to run around like chickens with their heads cut off telling people to put out their cigarettes. I'm thinking the smoking ban is going to go over like a lead balloon, with much worse results than a designated smoking area. 29yearsloyal and I just shook our heads in amazement of how poor of an idea this was.

 

I've been in several cities lately that have smoking bans (Madison, WI; Minneapolis, MN) and they seem to go over ok - at least with respect to the bars. Personally I like not reeking of an ashtray when I go home at night even if I do smoke so...

 

Which ban are you speaking of?

[Derwood]

Kiley's quote is completely unfair, I agree. It's a step away from movie quotes that say "If you love comedies.....you'll love it!" when the full quote was "If you love comedies avoid this movie. Go see Airplane instead, you'll love it!"

 

I wouldn't get worried about Cedeno's playing time until Dusty breaks out the "they've got the book on him" line.

[goonys evil twin]

 

So when you say it's about time for this stuff to stop, I hope you also include the ungodly number of "well it looks like Neifi is the starting X position guy again" comments as well.

 

Present one example. Just one.

 

See the problem is that you and some others have a problem with people criticizing the Cubs. There is nothing chicken little about it.

 

People questioned why Prior was being held out of games. You and some others made statements to the effect that those people were being overly cirticial. What happens next, low and behold Prior comes up with a shoulder strain. But we are supposed to believe that nothing was wrong with him before that.

 

Dusty has a track record of looking over poor play by "proven veterns" yet keys on poor play by minor leaguers.

 

Time will tell what Dusty will do. Untill then it is better to come up with your own argument why you belive what you do rather than point out the faults of people who post here.

 

The second post of this thread.

 

Not even close.

 

You're completely wrong. the guy said Dusty is laying the foundation for neifi.

 

That's Neifi Chicken Little. Confirmed.

 

I read 300 ABs (or was it PAs?) for Neifi. That's not the same as "starting X position guy".

 

Claiming Neifi will get 300 ABs or PAs is nowhere close to Chicken Little.

 

Why do people have such a problem with Cubs fans who don't have much faith in the decision makers of this organization? It's baffling. They've shown the willingness to make the wrong decision over and over again, and yet, when somebody predicts they'll make another bad decision, people get all uptight and defensive, blasting the supposedly outlanding insinuation that maybe, just maybe, the guys in charge of the Cubs aren't doing a great job.

[goonys evil twin]

Kiley's quote is completely unfair, I agree. It's a step away from movie quotes that say "If you love comedies.....you'll love it!" when the full quote was "If you love comedies avoid this movie. Go see Airplane instead, you'll love it!"

 

I wouldn't get worried about Cedeno's playing time until Dusty breaks out the "they've got the book on him" line.

 

Impossible. I've been worried about the fair distribution of playing time ever since Dusty came over. He's not likely to stick long in the regular season with a young player who shows any sort of prolonged struggle. And it's very rare that any rookie is able to go a season without prolonged periods of struggle.

[badger1679666666]

 

So when you say it's about time for this stuff to stop, I hope you also include the ungodly number of "well it looks like Neifi is the starting X position guy again" comments as well.

 

Present one example. Just one.

 

See the problem is that you and some others have a problem with people criticizing the Cubs. There is nothing chicken little about it.

 

People questioned why Prior was being held out of games. You and some others made statements to the effect that those people were being overly cirticial. What happens next, low and behold Prior comes up with a shoulder strain. But we are supposed to believe that nothing was wrong with him before that.

 

Dusty has a track record of looking over poor play by "proven veterns" yet keys on poor play by minor leaguers.

 

Time will tell what Dusty will do. Untill then it is better to come up with your own argument why you belive what you do rather than point out the faults of people who post here.

 

The second post of this thread.

 

Not even close.

 

You're completely wrong. the guy said Dusty is laying the foundation for neifi.

 

That's Neifi Chicken Little. Confirmed.

 

I read 300 ABs (or was it PAs?) for Neifi. That's not the same as "starting X position guy".

 

Claiming Neifi will get 300 ABs or PAs is nowhere close to Chicken Little.

 

Why do people have such a problem with Cubs fans who don't have much faith in the decision makers of this organization? It's baffling. They've shown the willingness to make the wrong decision over and over again, and yet, when somebody predicts they'll make another bad decision, people get all uptight and defensive, blasting the supposedly outlanding insinuation that maybe, just maybe, the guys in charge of the Cubs aren't doing a great job.

 

Why do people have such a problem with those of us that choose NOT to blast the organization at every opportunity, instead waiting until something actually happens to blast them?

[BigbadB]

I've been in several cities lately that have smoking bans (Madison, WI; Minneapolis, MN) and they seem to go over ok - at least with respect to the bars. Personally I like not reeking of an ashtray when I go home at night even if I do smoke so...

 

Which ban are you speaking of?

 

Oh, I completely agree with you on the bar thing. We've had that ban here for years, and I don't mind going outside to smoke.

 

The ban I'm speaking of is ANYWHERE within the stadium grounds at Petco Park.

 

It's a hike and a half to leave the grounds to have a smoke. The choices are:

 

1) don't go, which I believe a lot of smokers have decided to do (season ticket holders included)

2) light up anyway, which will probably happen around lots of nonsmokers as I witnessed last night

3) try to make it a whole game without smoking, like I did last night. But, I only did that because it was a special game and felt like I could do so because it was a special game. I won't be going to any other games there this year and considering the hassles of getting to the park in the first place, this choice does not hurt my feelings at all.

4)leave the grounds to smoke (which doesn't appear to be the popular choice)

 

The designated area seems to me to be the "compromise" method that would work best. I don't care if it is an enclosed tent at the far reaches of the stadium grounds where no non smoker can be offended. It's still better than having to exit the stadium. And it has to be better than what I witnessed last night. They just lit them up wherever they wanted to since there was no designated area and people were not willing to leave the grounds and miss an inning or two of the game.

[Bruce Miles]

I don't think there's any hypocrisy involved at all on Baker's part on this whole what he says about veterans versus what he says about young players. It's this way all around baseball. Perez has a guaranteed two year contract. He's going to be here no matter what. Cedeno is a young player and because he's the likely starter, the microscope is on him a little bit more. I asked Dusty the question yesterday about Ronny. It's really not a question you'd ask about Perez because his job situation is different and he has a proven track record, whether you like that track record or not. It was one of those situations yesterday where I said: "Hey, Ronny started off slowly and now he's hitting better. Dusty, what's your take on it." He was asked. He commented. And his take on Cedeno was very positive.

[badger1679666666]

I don't think there's any hypocrisy involved at all on Baker's part on this whole what he says about veterans versus what he says about young players. It's this way all around baseball. Perez has a guaranteed two year contract. He's going to be here no matter what. Cedeno is a young player and because he's the likely starter, the microscope is on him a little bit more. I asked Dusty the question yesterday about Ronny. It's really not a question you'd ask about Perez because his job situation is different and he has a proven track record, whether you like that track record or not. It was one of those situations yesterday where I said: "Hey, Ronny started off slowly and now he's hitting better. Dusty, what's your take on it." He was asked. He commented. And his take on Cedeno was very positive.

 

Thanks for your grounded perspective Bruce!

[goonys evil twin]

Why do people have such a problem with those of us that choose NOT to blast the organization at every opportunity, instead waiting until something actually happens to blast them?

 

People don't have a problem with that. They do have a problem with you blasting others for sharing their doubts.

 

You can have whatever opinion you want about Cubs management. Those who disagree aren't going to bombard you with BS akin to your Chicken Little crap. It's when you blast the posters who don't have faith in management for not having faith in management that people will have a problem with you. Share your opinion without labeling those who disagree with the absurd Chicken Little garbage, and similar trash, and there won't be a problem.

[badger1679666666]

Why do people have such a problem with those of us that choose NOT to blast the organization at every opportunity, instead waiting until something actually happens to blast them?

 

People don't have a problem with that. They do have a problem with you blasting others for sharing their doubts.

 

You can have whatever opinion you want about Cubs management. Those who disagree aren't going to bombard you with BS akin to your Chicken Little crap. It's when you blast the posters who don't have faith in management for not having faith in management that people will have a problem with you. Share your opinion without labeling those who disagree with the absurd Chicken Little garbage, and similar trash, and there won't be a problem.

 

Are you a mod? If so, ok. If not, don't tell me what to do. Thank you.

 

I will continue to call out people, who at the single twinge of the word Ronny, start posting about how Neifi is going to be starting.

 

What you posted here is much more of a personal insult than ANYTHING I've posted, but I have a feeling you'll get away with it.

[RynoRules]

Why do people have such a problem with those of us that choose NOT to blast the organization at every opportunity, instead waiting until something actually happens to blast them?

 

People don't have a problem with that. They do have a problem with you blasting others for sharing their doubts.

 

You can have whatever opinion you want about Cubs management. Those who disagree aren't going to bombard you with BS akin to your Chicken Little crap. It's when you blast the posters who don't have faith in management for not having faith in management that people will have a problem with you. Share your opinion without labeling those who disagree with the absurd Chicken Little garbage, and similar trash, and there won't be a problem.

 

I dunno about that. Its happened in the past, particulalry during times when we are all frustrated by some turn of events.

[CubinNY]

I will continue to call out people.

 

I thought you said you didn't do that sort of thing?

[badger1679666666]

I will continue to call out people.

 

I thought you said you didn't do that sort of thing?

 

Oh please you know what I meant. If people post THAT crap, to use Goony's language, I am going to call out their arguments as being innacurate.

 

Oh and calling out a poster on a post, is different than insulting one, so actually I DO call out posters to justify their positions. I don't personally insult them by calling what they say as garbage or crap or trash.

 

Why do people have such a problem with those of us that choose NOT to blast the organization at every opportunity, instead waiting until something actually happens to blast them?

 

People don't have a problem with that. They do have a problem with you blasting others for sharing their doubts.

 

You can have whatever opinion you want about Cubs management. Those who disagree aren't going to bombard you with BS akin to your Chicken Little crap. It's when you blast the posters who don't have faith in management for not having faith in management that people will have a problem with you. Share your opinion without labeling those who disagree with the absurd Chicken Little garbage, and similar trash, and there won't be a problem.

 

I dunno about that. Its happened in the past, particulalry during times when we are all frustrated by some turn of events.

 

Actually there are several times I defended Hendry this offseason, that I could bombarded with BS. I didn't even think about this when I posted.

[BigbadB]

Why do people have such a problem with those of us that choose NOT to blast the organization at every opportunity, instead waiting until something actually happens to blast them?

 

I don't see this the same way you do. You are certainly welcome to be supportive (you being a generalization and not you directly) of every decision made by the Cubs organization. But, people have their reasons for why they can't or won't be supportive of those same decisions.

 

Maybe it's because of the futile history of this organization. Maybe it's because Dusty hasn't given them reason to be optimistic. Maybe it's a combination of things.

 

But, there is certainly no more wrong in believing that the sky is falling as there is in believing this organization can do no wrong.

 

Argue those points without labeling someone who doesn't agree with you and we can achieve a great debate.

 

If any organization should have a lot of pessimistic fans, it's the Cubs. Being pessimistic is not nearly as healthy as being optimistic. Some of the pessimistic fans were optimistic at one time, but something finally sent them over the edge.

 

But, even the most pessimistic fans still want this organization to win. Wanting the organization to win and having the faith that they can do so are two different things.

 

I didn't really come on board as a Cub fan until 1971. I basically missed the comedy that was 1969. I cannot show any disrespect to someone who lived through the heartache of 1969 because they lost their faith in this organization. Especially when they still follow them closely.

 

One thing we all seem to have in common here is a geniune love for this baseball team. We aren't always going to agree on things because we are all totally different individuals. As long as we keep the debates from getting personal, we can agree to disagree and respect each others opinions.

 

My reason for jumping into this thread is to stop the labeling and insults from getting out of hand. I haven't shared an opinion either way about the topic at hand.

[badger1679666666]

I'm bringing the discussion back to this now:

 

I don't think there's any hypocrisy involved at all on Baker's part on this whole what he says about veterans versus what he says about young players. It's this way all around baseball. Perez has a guaranteed two year contract. He's going to be here no matter what. Cedeno is a young player and because he's the likely starter, the microscope is on him a little bit more. I asked Dusty the question yesterday about Ronny. It's really not a question you'd ask about Perez because his job situation is different and he has a proven track record, whether you like that track record or not. It was one of those situations yesterday where I said: "Hey, Ronny started off slowly and now he's hitting better. Dusty, what's your take on it." He was asked. He commented. And his take on Cedeno was very positive.

 

And that personally makes me feel very happy and confident that Neifi is a backup.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't think there's any hypocrisy involved at all on Baker's part on this whole what he says about veterans versus what he says about young players. It's this way all around baseball. Perez has a guaranteed two year contract. He's going to be here no matter what.

 

really not a question you'd ask about Perez because his job situation is different and he has a proven track record, whether you like that track record or not.

 

Without regard to the specific quotation in question, I believe what you wrote here is exactly the problem in baseball.

 

The absurdity in simply relying on proven veterans with track records, when those track records are nothing but disappointing, is where the hypocricy lies. Dusty might not be more of a hyprocrite than many other baseball people, but that doesn't mean he isn't a hypocrite. But why should a guy get the benefit of the doubt simply because he's been there, when all he's done when there is fail, repeatedly?

 

The sport of football, is all about performance. Do it now, on the field, and it doesn't matter if you're 23 or 32. There are certain coaches who abhor using rookies, like Parcells. But of the most part, you earn your job on the field, and can lose your job on the field. You don't just get to keep a job because you did it before, and as a rookie you aren't precluded from taking a vets job just because he's still breathing and wants the job. Baseball is so stuck on the notion of service time and tenure that merit takes a back seat when it comes to dividing up time. Baseball people think there is a "right way to do things", so they arbitrarily follow this unwritten code of posterity for all sorts of things, like "leadoff must be a fast guy", "proven veteran is better than unknown rookie", "strikeouts are the worst possible thing in the world", "baseball was better in the X era".

[goonys evil twin]

Are you a mod? If so, ok. If not, don't tell me what to do. Thank you.

 

I will continue to call out people, who at the single twinge of the word Ronny, start posting about how Neifi is going to be starting.

 

What you posted here is much more of a personal insult than ANYTHING I've posted, but I have a feeling you'll get away with it.

 

No, I'm not a mod. But it seems pretty clear to me that there are rules on this board about attacking ideas, and not the people who espouse them. If somebody says "Dusty benched Cedeno today, that means Neifi will start the rest of the year." Then you describe why you disagree. When somebody says "I think Neifi is going to get 300 ABs this year", if you disagree, make a case against that theory. Don't go around calling them Chicken Little. That's childish, and completely against the whole notion of trying to keep civilized debate on this board.

[goonys evil twin]

I will continue to call out people.

 

I thought you said you didn't do that sort of thing?

 

Oh please you know what I meant. If people post THAT crap, to use Goony's language, I am going to call out their arguments as being innacurate.

 

How in the world can you justify referring to somebody who thinks Neifi will get 300 AB as Chicken Little?

 

If somebody said Dusty is going to start Neifi every day and never give Ronny a major league at bat this year, then maybe you are justified with the Chicken Little arguement. Although the whole concept of belittling the person with such a label still goes against the stated policies of this board.

 

But stating Neifi is going to get 300 AB is nowhere near Chicken Little. Instead, it's highly likely. That's less than 50% of SS time, and if you give him some 2B time as well as the occasional 3B time, and numerous pinch hitting opportunities, it will be next to impossible to avoid that many at bats barring injury.

[CubinNY]

I'm bringing the discussion back to this now:

 

I don't think there's any hypocrisy involved at all on Baker's part on this whole what he says about veterans versus what he says about young players. It's this way all around baseball. Perez has a guaranteed two year contract. He's going to be here no matter what. Cedeno is a young player and because he's the likely starter, the microscope is on him a little bit more. I asked Dusty the question yesterday about Ronny. It's really not a question you'd ask about Perez because his job situation is different and he has a proven track record, whether you like that track record or not. It was one of those situations yesterday where I said: "Hey, Ronny started off slowly and now he's hitting better. Dusty, what's your take on it." He was asked. He commented. And his take on Cedeno was very positive.

 

And that personally makes me feel very happy and confident that Neifi is a backup.

 

I disagree with Mr. Miles on the part I bolded. I think there is a lot of hypocrisy in Baker's comments. And just becuase it is that way all around baseball doesn't make it right.

 

Baseball is the biggest old boys network in sports. How many retread managers get second, third, and fouth chances to prove they are not good? Why do clubs hang on to proven veterans just becuase they have been there before? Look at the rosters in AAA. They are full of guys who don't deserve a spot but are there b/c of some belief system that says b/c a guy has had a medicore career he should be given a spot.

 

When Baker was coming up with the Dodgers they were legendary for doing this sort of thing. Heck the rule 5 draft was practically put in place b/c they would hold guys in AAA for an eternity.

 

I agree that Neifi is the back up. However, when Walker is traded (and he will be most likely) Neifi will get more ABs than would otherwise be the case. Should Cedeno go into a slump who will be replacing him? Hairston hasn't played a full season in his entire career. Should he go down Neifi will be playing. Now, I guess I don't have a problem with that so much as where he will bat in the line up.

[badger1679666666]

I will continue to call out people.

 

I thought you said you didn't do that sort of thing?

 

Oh please you know what I meant. If people post THAT crap, to use Goony's language, I am going to call out their arguments as being innacurate.

 

How in the world can you justify referring to somebody who thinks Neifi will get 300 AB as Chicken Little?

 

If somebody said Dusty is going to start Neifi every day and never give Ronny a major league at bat this year, then maybe you are justified with the Chicken Little arguement. Although the whole concept of belittling the person with such a label still goes against the stated policies of this board.

 

But stating Neifi is going to get 300 AB is nowhere near Chicken Little. Instead, it's highly likely. That's less than 50% of SS time, and if you give him some 2B time as well as the occasional 3B time, and numerous pinch hitting opportunities, it will be next to impossible to avoid that many at bats barring injury.

 

1st, I didn't start with Chicken Little. Someone else did and I used it. My application of that word is not towards posters but chicken little arguments. Further, My posts on this thread are not necessarily just a reflection of my view of other posts on this thread, but a general posting attitude that is pervasive when it comes to Ronny/Neifi. Ronny is the starter, Dusty's said it, Hendry'd implied it, and now Bruce has said it. Neifi replacing Ronny has been posted ad nauseum anytime cedeno's struggles are mentioned. If you don't see this, you are selectively reading the board. So maybe the second post on this thread was not a good example - i will give you but that, but there aren't a shortage of examples on this board lately of it.

[BigbadB]

My problem is that Neifi got a 2 year contract. My problem is that a guy like Jose Macias can have a job on the Cubs for 2 years. My problem is that a guy with the abilities of Neifi Perez or Jose Macias even get any newspaper time outside of a game winning hit after being the last guy off the bench in a close game.

 

To me, Dusty values a guy like Neifi Perez way too much. Whatever my opinions of Walker or Hairston are, Neifi is an end of the bench, bottom of the order, late inning defensive replacement.

 

Neifi had way too many top of the order at bats. He had way too many starts last year. Cedeno was sent to the minor leagues in favor of Enrique Wilson, who I think is even worse than Neifi Perez. It's only 6 months later, and Cedeno has very little more major league experience as he had when Dusty sent him down in favor of Wilson. A poor Spring Training isn't helping his cause.

 

Rafael Furcal, Edgar Renteria, Julio Lugo, Miguel Tejada. A lot of names were thrown around in trade talks and free agency this offseason. They didn't do any of those deals. They wanted to go with Cedeno, or at least felt that the deals offered weren't worth it considering we had Ronny Cedeno (not Neifi Perez) already in our camp.

 

A poor spring training should not change that and I hope it doesn't change that. But, given the current manager can bat Neifi Perez and Jose Macias 1st and 2nd in a batting order, pardon me for not having complete faith that Ronny will be given a fair shake.