The first WBC casualty

[Derwood]

Luis Ayala out for the season after pitching for Mexico in the WBC. Needs TJ surgery. May have happened anyway, but.....

[DurbanJer]

Derwood, I don't know how you felt about the WBC, but I find it very interesting that the Nats are so livid with the WBC for losing Ayala.

 

Perhaps it's a function of living overseas, but I found (still find, even though the 'boys in red white and blue' aren't in it) the WBC to be an awesome, awesome event. Even when I had the minor seizure watching Derek Lee bruise his shoulder against Japan, I didn't think for a minute that he shoud NOT be participating. Though I fully understand the Nats position, and their anger, I think they're venting their frustration in the wrong place.

 

If I'm the Nats, I ask myself why, if Ayala was coming off surgery, didn't he and/or his agent keep him as far from the WBC as possible.

 

OR, if the Nats had contracts that included clauses preventing players from participating in sporting events (sactioned by MLB or otherwise) in the off-season, maybe they could gripe.

[Soul]

I'm glad some people are enjoying it, don't get me wrong.

 

But we knew it would cause MLB teams to lose some players, and that has now happened.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens next year. If I'm a GM, I start looking at building "no WBC" clauses into some players' contracts, if possible.

 

BTW---he's not the first WBC casualty. Derek Lee was also injured playing in the WBC.

[EightyTwo]

But Lee isn't going to miss the whole season...

[Derwood]

I'm glad some people are enjoying it, don't get me wrong.

 

But we knew it would cause MLB teams to lose some players, and that has now happened.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens next year. If I'm a GM, I start looking at building "no WBC" clauses into some players' contracts, if possible.

 

BTW---he's not the first WBC casualty. Derek Lee was also injured playing in the WBC.

 

yes, but is Lee projected to miss any regular season games? He may be banged up, but Ayala is a full year deal (maybe longer depending on his recovery time from Tommy John...)

[srbin84]

There is no way this injury wouldn't have happened anyway.

[Jon]

There is no way this injury wouldn't have happened anyway.

Agreed. He pitched to just one batter in the game against the US and just one other inning the entire WBC. There was something wrong with his arm and his time in the WBC had nothing to do with it.

[Soul]

I'm glad some people are enjoying it, don't get me wrong.

 

But we knew it would cause MLB teams to lose some players, and that has now happened.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens next year. If I'm a GM, I start looking at building "no WBC" clauses into some players' contracts, if possible.

 

BTW---he's not the first WBC casualty. Derek Lee was also injured playing in the WBC.

 

yes, but is Lee projected to miss any regular season games? He may be banged up, but Ayala is a full year deal (maybe longer depending on his recovery time from Tommy John...)

 

True. Lee's injury was more of a ding. But it will push back his training schedule, as any injury would.

[Soul]

There is no way this injury wouldn't have happened anyway.

Agreed. He pitched to just one batter in the game against the US and just one other inning the entire WBC. There was something wrong with his arm and his time in the WBC had nothing to do with it.

 

Speculation. The fact is, he incurred the injury playing in the WBC.

 

Nobody can say what would have happened if he was pitching warm-up innings in Spring Training as opposed to going full-bore in the WBC. He may have had better supervision in Spring Training too---which may well helped lessen the severity of the injury. Or maybe not.

 

Impossible to say, but he got injured playing in the WBC so it's a WBC injury.

[srbin84]

I only have a limited understanding of that ligament, but I think it is like a rubber band. You can stretch a rubber band out for a long time and it snap from wear and tear (small outings piling up) or you can do it quickly by ripping it apart (multiple starts of 150+ pitches in a row for example or three inning outings for relievers). It seems to be pretty clear Ayala was the first case.

[SouthSideRyan]

There is no way this injury wouldn't have happened anyway.

Agreed. He pitched to just one batter in the game against the US and just one other inning the entire WBC. There was something wrong with his arm and his time in the WBC had nothing to do with it.

 

Speculation. The fact is, he incurred the injury playing in the WBC.

 

Nobody can say what would have happened if he was pitching warm-up innings in Spring Training as opposed to going full-bore in the WBC. He may have had better supervision in Spring Training too---which may well helped lessen the severity of the injury. Or maybe not.

 

Impossible to say, but he got injured playing in the WBC so it's a WBC injury.

 

It's also speculation to say he wouldn't have died on the field if he was in ST. Dumb speculation, but speculation nonetheless. The Nats are covering their ass since they overworked him last year, and now they can just avoid all blame and push it on the WBC.

[Soul]

There is no way this injury wouldn't have happened anyway.

Agreed. He pitched to just one batter in the game against the US and just one other inning the entire WBC. There was something wrong with his arm and his time in the WBC had nothing to do with it.

 

Speculation. The fact is, he incurred the injury playing in the WBC.

 

Nobody can say what would have happened if he was pitching warm-up innings in Spring Training as opposed to going full-bore in the WBC. He may have had better supervision in Spring Training too---which may well helped lessen the severity of the injury. Or maybe not.

 

Impossible to say, but he got injured playing in the WBC so it's a WBC injury.

 

It's also speculation to say he wouldn't have died on the field if he was in ST. Dumb speculation, but speculation nonetheless. The Nats are covering their ass since they overworked him last year, and now they can just avoid all blame and push it on the WBC.

 

Call it what you want. Facts:

 

1) He was playing in the WBC.

2) He got injured while playing in the WBC.

3) Therefore, it was a WBC injury.

[DurbanJer]

 

Call it what you want. Facts:

 

1) He was playing in the WBC.

2) He got injured while playing in the WBC.

3) Therefore, it was a WBC injury.

 

Totally and completely accurate. But that doesn't mean that the injury would NOT have happened if he had NOT participated in the WBC. It is faulty logic to state that the WBC is WHY he is hurt. It's like saying tall women are attractive -- Jane Doe is tall -- therefore Jane is attractive. He came into the WBC off arm surgery, he pitched in the WBC, he was hurt. I sincerely doubt that pitching in the WBC or pitching in spring training wouldn't have resulted in the same thing.

 

I go back to what I said earlier. I don't think that the Nats are 'in bounds' by blaming the WBC. If I'm a player coming off surgery in the last 12 mos., as strong as the siren song of playing for your country may be, I'd have to think long and hard what that may mean for my career. And I don't blame the Nats for being angry -- I just don't agree with the logic that stats that there is a direct correlation between participating in the WBC leading to injury.

 

In fact, I think that teams angry at the lack of playing time for some of their players, or those players who find themselves behind in position battles to have a more legitmate beef with the WBC.

 

But to jump into a form of elite competition after arm surgery without listening to your employer? Well that's just bloody stupid.

[DurbanJer]

I'm glad some people are enjoying it, don't get me wrong.

 

But we knew it would cause MLB teams to lose some players, and that has now happened.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens next year. If I'm a GM, I start looking at building "no WBC" clauses into some players' contracts, if possible.

 

BTW---he's not the first WBC casualty. Derek Lee was also injured playing in the WBC.

 

yes, but is Lee projected to miss any regular season games? He may be banged up, but Ayala is a full year deal (maybe longer depending on his recovery time from Tommy John...)

 

True. Lee's injury was more of a ding. But it will push back his training schedule, as any injury would.

 

Again, maybe this is a function of being overseas and all, but I'd rather lose one of my elite players to an event like the WBC, than to somehting stupid like walking in flip-flops (M. Prior claimed this once) or washing a car (J. Kent, if I recall) or to change sports -- being punched out at an FBI sponsored BBQ......

[DurbanJer]

There is no way this injury wouldn't have happened anyway.

Agreed. He pitched to just one batter in the game against the US and just one other inning the entire WBC. There was something wrong with his arm and his time in the WBC had nothing to do with it.

 

Speculation. The fact is, he incurred the injury playing in the WBC.

 

Nobody can say what would have happened if he was pitching warm-up innings in Spring Training as opposed to going full-bore in the WBC. He may have had better supervision in Spring Training too---which may well helped lessen the severity of the injury. Or maybe not.

 

Impossible to say, but he got injured playing in the WBC so it's a WBC injury.

 

It's also speculation to say he wouldn't have died on the field if he was in ST. Dumb speculation, but speculation nonetheless. The Nats are covering their ass since they overworked him last year, and now they can just avoid all blame and push it on the WBC.

 

How 'bout blaming the player? It was his choice. Generally, I think we all look for excuses outside ourselves instead of looking in the mirror.

[srbin84]

There is no way this injury wouldn't have happened anyway.

Agreed. He pitched to just one batter in the game against the US and just one other inning the entire WBC. There was something wrong with his arm and his time in the WBC had nothing to do with it.

 

Speculation. The fact is, he incurred the injury playing in the WBC.

 

Nobody can say what would have happened if he was pitching warm-up innings in Spring Training as opposed to going full-bore in the WBC. He may have had better supervision in Spring Training too---which may well helped lessen the severity of the injury. Or maybe not.

 

Impossible to say, but he got injured playing in the WBC so it's a WBC injury.

 

It's also speculation to say he wouldn't have died on the field if he was in ST. Dumb speculation, but speculation nonetheless. The Nats are covering their ass since they overworked him last year, and now they can just avoid all blame and push it on the WBC.

 

How 'bout blaming the player? It was his choice. Generally, I think we all look for excuses outside ourselves instead of looking in the mirror.

 

It should be the owner/manager's choice IMO. I like how Steinbrenner at least tried to influence the majority of his players to avoid it.

[DurbanJer]

I think that a team/GM/ownership should work with a player prior to participation.

 

Since MLB is so heavily invested in the WBC, I'm surprised they don't have insurance policies for participants - to at least protect teams financially from a player's injury.

[Soul]

 

Call it what you want. Facts:

 

1) He was playing in the WBC.

2) He got injured while playing in the WBC.

3) Therefore, it was a WBC injury.

 

Totally and completely accurate. But that doesn't mean that the injury would NOT have happened if he had NOT participated in the WBC. It is faulty logic to state that the WBC is WHY he is hurt. It's like saying tall women are attractive -- Jane Doe is tall -- therefore Jane is attractive. He came into the WBC off arm surgery, he pitched in the WBC, he was hurt. I sincerely doubt that pitching in the WBC or pitching in spring training wouldn't have resulted in the same thing.

 

I go back to what I said earlier. I don't think that the Nats are 'in bounds' by blaming the WBC. If I'm a player coming off surgery in the last 12 mos., as strong as the siren song of playing for your country may be, I'd have to think long and hard what that may mean for my career. And I don't blame the Nats for being angry -- I just don't agree with the logic that stats that there is a direct correlation between participating in the WBC leading to injury.

 

In fact, I think that teams angry at the lack of playing time for some of their players, or those players who find themselves behind in position battles to have a more legitmate beef with the WBC.

 

But to jump into a form of elite competition after arm surgery without listening to your employer? Well that's just bloody stupid.

 

Understood. But it puts these guys in a bad position. We might not understand it here in the US, but it can be pretty difficult to face your countrymen after having bowed out of representing them.

 

Any injury that happens in the WBC can be excused by saying "it might have happened in spring training, too." I'm not going to go there. Instead, I'm going to call those injuries that take place in WBC games, WBC injuries.

 

I agree it wasn't a good idea for him to pitch. I also think it illustrates what the WBC brings to the baseball landscape: added pressure to compete, the added wear and tear of full-force competition for an extra month.

[Drew Doughty]

No, this kind of injury wasn't like a collision or even like DLee landing on his shoulder, that would be a WBC injury. This was something that was likely to happen in ST or at the start of the regular season anyways, that's why it's not a WBC injury.

[Soul]

No, this kind of injury wasn't like a collision or even like DLee landing on his shoulder, that would be a WBC injury. This was something that was likely to happen in ST or at the start of the regular season anyways, that's why it's not a WBC injury.

 

That's an excuse. Nobody can say how his MLB club would have handled him in ST. Nobody can say what would have happened or would not have happened.

 

Stick with facts (see above).

[srbin84]

No, this kind of injury wasn't like a collision or even like DLee landing on his shoulder, that would be a WBC injury. This was something that was likely to happen in ST or at the start of the regular season anyways, that's why it's not a WBC injury.

 

That's an excuse. Nobody can say how his MLB club would have handled him in ST. Nobody can say what would have happened or would not have happened.

 

Stick with facts (see above).

 

But isn't TJS the result of accumulated damage? He was at the breaking point regardless of where he was pitching. His ligament couldn't have become stronger and healthier by treating him differently. In fact, if pitching the WBC made this injury happen a month or two earlier, it's a blessing in disguise because he would have needed TJS anyway, why not just do it right now and have him ready for the start of next season.

[DurbanJer]

No, this kind of injury wasn't like a collision or even like DLee landing on his shoulder, that would be a WBC injury. This was something that was likely to happen in ST or at the start of the regular season anyways, that's why it's not a WBC injury.

 

That's an excuse. Nobody can say how his MLB club would have handled him in ST. Nobody can say what would have happened or would not have happened.

 

Stick with facts (see above).

 

Soul, you're spot-on in calling this a WBC injury - as a semantic arguement. My contention is that even with the added pressure to compete (which is quite intense, much as you mentioned), players still should be held accountable.

 

I think the WBC has been very very good for baseball and hope to see it continue every 4 years. I don't want to see it scuttled because players with poor judgement (Ayala) give teams excuses for not allowing participation.

 

I said this earlier, but I think MLB should have insurance on all contracts for participants. Maybe this could spawn a new discussion, but this is one of several improvements that could be made to make the WBC better.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

"Sticking to the facts" is a pretty dense way of looking at it. That's like calling Prior's line drive off the elbow a "May 27 injury" or a "Wrigley Field injury" or a "Cubs home pinstripes" injury. Yeah, all those things are true, but qualifying the injury as such is ultimately inaccurate. It wasn't some special circumstance, like an awkward fall(Lee), or being overworked as a pitcher during the WBC(virtually impossible with the restrictions), and like others have brought up, you don't just throw a bad pitch, or even 50, and suddenly need TJS.

[goonys evil twin]

Dear WBC,

 

I hate you for what you did to Zambrano.

 

Screw off.

[Soul]

Dear WBC,

 

I hate you for what you did to Zambrano.

 

Screw off.

 

Thank you. Next year lets send them our minor leaguers. Leave the players we really need alone. They need their spring training----in MARCH, not April when the games count.