Rogers Praises Guillen, Faults Baker and Riggs

[Wilson A2000]

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-060314rogers,1,1678886.column?coll=cs-home-utility

 

According to Rogers, Guillen only let his pitchers go over 120 pitches five times last year. Baker has consistently let his pitchers throw over 120 pitches which has resulted in Prior and Wood being injured (yet Zambrano throws just a smany pitches as either of them). I don't think he mentioned that Woody has always had bad mechanics and that, at least according to UK, Prior's mechanics have fallen a little since he first began with the Cubs. I wonder how much Prior's achilles tendon injury in ST two years ago and his broken arm have messed with his motion. Maybe when he injured his achilles he began pitching differently, although slightly, and hasn't reverted back to his old motion. Or maybe they just get hurt a lot.

[Balsa]

I was pretty surprised to see Rogers confront Dusty so blatantly about pitchcounts and pitcher abuse.

 

I think that the number of pitches each pitcher can throw without cause for worry can differ dramatically, for instance, Z appears to have a pretty strong arm, but the case with Guillen really shows how few pitches those starters threw.

 

I wonder if that isn't a case of the starters going the same amount of innings, but just pitching more efficiently though. Or maybe being able to rely on a stable bullpen, Guillen felt comfortable pulling the starters earlier.

[goonys evil twin]

I wonder if that isn't a case of the starters going the same amount of innings, but just pitching more efficiently though. Or maybe being able to rely on a stable bullpen, Guillen felt comfortable pulling the starters earlier.

 

Regardless of how effiicient the pitcher is, or how much faith the manager has in his bullpen, the man in charge is obligated to not overuse his starting pitchers. It's just not an excuse.

[Wilson A2000]

What if the Cubs would have won the World Series in 2003. Woudl you haev a different feeling sbout Wood and Prior being consistently hurt now?

[goonys evil twin]

What if the Cubs would have won the World Series in 2003. Woudl you haev a different feeling sbout Wood and Prior being consistently hurt now?

 

Maybe I wouldn't care as much, can't say, the Cubs have never been close to winning a world series. But it wouldn't change the fact that the manager has that responsibility. The overuse didn't help them win more than they would have done otherwise. Much of it happened in games they lost or won big.

 

The problem is thinking that throwing your pitcher out there for pitches 120-140 is a better option than going to your bullpen. Just because he's better from 0-120 doesn't mean he's better later. And often times the guy struggled in his next outing after being extended, which negates whatever minimal value you might have received for keeping him in in the first place.

[TheDude]

Has anybody been able to show a direct correlation between pitches thrown and injury occurance in subsequent years, across all pitchers over a several year timespan?

 

Or is this all pure speculation to fuel a predetermined bias?

[goonys evil twin]

Or is this all pure speculation to fuel a predetermined bias?

 

Here we go again, the bury your head in the sand approach.

 

Until you prove it 100% we'll keep running guys out there more than just about everybody else.

 

There's a place for moderation. You don't have to pull guys at 99 pitches and skip a start every month. Moderation, that's the key. If you refuse to acknowledge there is even a chance of a correlation until it's proved completely (and we know how willing many baseball people are to admit when something has been proven that is opposite of conventional wisdom), and then take the extreme position in the opposite direction, you're basing your theory on pure speculation as well (it's all luck anyway, we can't control it).

[frostwyrm]

I remember that hilarious column from spring 2004 where he called Dusty "the ultimate trump card" and said he gave the Cubs a 5 game advantage before the season even began. Funny thing, Wood's and Prior's 2003 pitch counts didn't bother Rogers back then.

[C.C.]

I wonder if that isn't a case of the starters going the same amount of innings, but just pitching more efficiently though. Or maybe being able to rely on a stable bullpen, Guillen felt comfortable pulling the starters earlier.

 

Guillen could pull them early because Ozzie had a bullpen. Let's face it Baker hasn't had a bullpen since he's been here. This year the bullpen looks strong and he can trust it more. It's not a solid argument. If Ozzie had the Cubs bullpend he would have no choice but to let the starters go a bit longer. Also if Baker pulled these guys after 100 pitchers no one would make it past the 5 inning....Sorry I don't see were you blame baker here.

[RynoRules]

I remember that hilarious column from spring 2004 where he called Dusty "the ultimate trump card" and said he gave the Cubs a 5 game advantage before the season even began. Funny thing, Wood's and Prior's 2003 pitch counts didn't bother Rogers back then.

 

True, but I think he deserves credit for giving the Dusty the benefit of the doubt, but not forever. His last sentence in this morning's column synthesized the issue very well - Guillen's SPs through more than 120 pitches 5 times all of last year. Guillen understands how to manage his assets; Dusty does not. Well said.

[C.C.]

I remember that hilarious column from spring 2004 where he called Dusty "the ultimate trump card" and said he gave the Cubs a 5 game advantage before the season even began. Funny thing, Wood's and Prior's 2003 pitch counts didn't bother Rogers back then.

 

True, but I think he deserves credit for giving the Dusty the benefit of the doubt, but not forever. His last sentence in this morning's column synthesized the issue very well - Guillen's SPs through more than 120 pitches 5 times all of last year. Guillen understands how to manage his assets; Dusty does not. Well said.

 

Again I think it's because Ozzie had a bullpen Baker has never had that luxory since he's been here.

[goonys evil twin]

Again I think it's because Ozzie had a bullpen Baker has never had that luxory since he's been here.

 

Dusty's lack of faith in his bullpen is no justification for the usage patterns.

[CubinNY]

I remember that hilarious column from spring 2004 where he called Dusty "the ultimate trump card" and said he gave the Cubs a 5 game advantage before the season even began. Funny thing, Wood's and Prior's 2003 pitch counts didn't bother Rogers back then.

 

True, but I think he deserves credit for giving the Dusty the benefit of the doubt, but not forever. His last sentence in this morning's column synthesized the issue very well - Guillen's SPs through more than 120 pitches 5 times all of last year. Guillen understands how to manage his assets; Dusty does not. Well said.

 

Again I think it's because Ozzie had a bullpen Baker has never had that luxory since he's been here.

 

That is BS. Furthermore, having a bad bullpen is no excuse for letting a pitcher go far past the point of effectiveness and to the point of injury.

 

Having Z and Prior continue to pitch past a humdred or so when in a blow out is inexcusable. That happend more than a few times over the last couple of years.

 

There were plenty of options in the bullpen. But when Dusty continues to put in Remlinger to face lefties you are demanding failure. When he trotts Farnsworth out for the 4 day out of the last six he is demanding failure. And on and on.

[Blueheart05]

I remember that hilarious column from spring 2004 where he called Dusty "the ultimate trump card" and said he gave the Cubs a 5 game advantage before the season even began. Funny thing, Wood's and Prior's 2003 pitch counts didn't bother Rogers back then.

 

True, but I think he deserves credit for giving the Dusty the benefit of the doubt, but not forever. His last sentence in this morning's column synthesized the issue very well - Guillen's SPs through more than 120 pitches 5 times all of last year. Guillen understands how to manage his assets; Dusty does not. Well said.

 

Before we start giving Guillen the "credit" he doesn't deserve let's also remember that he pitched an injured Hermanson in the playoffs (and at various times during the season) and now he's injured again this Spring. Why didn't the wise Ozzie know that Dustin needed to be shut down (for that matter, why didn't Herm Schneider)?

[abuck1220]

I remember that hilarious column from spring 2004 where he called Dusty "the ultimate trump card" and said he gave the Cubs a 5 game advantage before the season even began. Funny thing, Wood's and Prior's 2003 pitch counts didn't bother Rogers back then.

 

and while i don't have any article on hand, he strikes me as the kind of guy that would naysay the whole 'babying the pitcher' talk that started around that time.

[CubDad4Ever]

You cant on one hand claim to be stat oriented, as in obp over all , and on the other hand tell some one they are burying their head in the sand., when they ask a legit question about quantifying utilization patterns. Because no one has defenitive proof as to what equals misuse. I agree at times Dusty can seem to push that envelope. However injuries happen to pitchers on all teams , with all types of managers.

 

We will see , how it turns out. They have to play 162 with or without Prior. Coach L

[sonofsamiam]

I remember that hilarious column from spring 2004 where he called Dusty "the ultimate trump card" and said he gave the Cubs a 5 game advantage before the season even began. Funny thing, Wood's and Prior's 2003 pitch counts didn't bother Rogers back then.

 

and while i don't have any article on hand, he strikes me as the kind of guy that would naysay the whole 'babying the pitcher' talk that started around that time.

 

This may be true. Regardless, he was on the money with this article, and it takes a lot for me to say that about Phil Rogers.

 

Oh, and if anyone wants a touch of evidence about the perils of pitcher overuse, check out the 1980 Oakland A's starters and their subsequent careers.

 

Yikes.

[goonys evil twin]

Before we start giving Guillen the "credit" he doesn't deserve let's also remember that he pitched an injured Hermanson in the playoffs (and at various times during the season) and now he's injured again this Spring. Why didn't the wise Ozzie know that Dustin needed to be shut down (for that matter, why didn't Herm Schneider)?

 

I don't want to pretend Ozzie is some genius at taking care of pitchers. But there's a big difference between abusing a guy like Harmanson, and guys like Wood and Prior. Hermanson is spare parts. If he goes down, so be it. It's like Rusch.

[goonys evil twin]

You cant on one hand claim to be stat oriented, as in obp over all , and on the other hand tell some one they are burying their head in the sand., when they ask a legit question about quantifying utilization patterns. Because no one has defenitive proof as to what equals misuse.

 

I can, and I did, and I will.

 

The opposite of the "take some precautions and don't push the envelope" thought is the "we don't even know exactly what causes injuries so I'm not going to pay any attention to pitch counts" thought.

[Blueheart05]

Before we start giving Guillen the "credit" he doesn't deserve let's also remember that he pitched an injured Hermanson in the playoffs (and at various times during the season) and now he's injured again this Spring. Why didn't the wise Ozzie know that Dustin needed to be shut down (for that matter, why didn't Herm Schneider)?

 

I don't want to pretend Ozzie is some genius at taking care of pitchers. But there's a big difference between abusing a guy like Harmanson, and guys like Wood and Prior. Hermanson is spare parts. If he goes down, so be it. It's like Rusch.

 

He isn't spare parts on their team, he is their closer. Jenks bailed them out last year but before Hermannson's latest injury popped up Guillen publically said, again, that Hermannson was his closer (even though Jenks got the important saves last year).

[goonys evil twin]

He isn't spare parts on their team, he is their closer. Jenks bailed them out last year but before Hermannson's latest injury popped up Guillen publically said, again, that Hermannson was his closer (even though Jenks got the important saves last year).

 

He's spare parts no matter how they label him. He was one of a few fallback options for the job going into 2005.

 

It's a huge difference than Wood and Prior.

[Wilson A2000]

I remember that hilarious column from spring 2004 where he called Dusty "the ultimate trump card" and said he gave the Cubs a 5 game advantage before the season even began. Funny thing, Wood's and Prior's 2003 pitch counts didn't bother Rogers back then.

 

True, but I think he deserves credit for giving the Dusty the benefit of the doubt, but not forever. His last sentence in this morning's column synthesized the issue very well - Guillen's SPs through more than 120 pitches 5 times all of last year. Guillen understands how to manage his assets; Dusty does not. Well said.

 

Before we start giving Guillen the "credit" he doesn't deserve let's also remember that he pitched an injured Hermanson in the playoffs (and at various times during the season) and now he's injured again this Spring. Why didn't the wise Ozzie know that Dustin needed to be shut down (for that matter, why didn't Herm Schneider)?

 

Herm Schneider is one of the best trainers in baseball. The Sox shut down Hermanson for at least the last third of the season. If you ask Dustin, he probably wanted to pitch rather badly in the WS, even if that furthered his injury. Backs flare up and I doubt his pitching an inning or two in the WS is the cause of his condition right now.

[CubDad4Ever]

You may, it does not make you right, and trying to say overuse comes in an exact set of pitch counts has yet to be proven. I agree some monitering has to be done , especially realitive to how many innings guys have thrown on the way up to the bigs. Buy more has to be proven, or its just i hate Dusty and this fits my argument. Coach L

[Blueheart05]

He isn't spare parts on their team, he is their closer. Jenks bailed them out last year but before Hermannson's latest injury popped up Guillen publically said, again, that Hermannson was his closer (even though Jenks got the important saves last year).

 

He's spare parts no matter how they label him. He was one of a few fallback options for the job going into 2005.

 

It's a huge difference than Wood and Prior.

 

That's not the point; he was a pitcher who was misused on the staff.

[Blueheart05]

I remember that hilarious column from spring 2004 where he called Dusty "the ultimate trump card" and said he gave the Cubs a 5 game advantage before the season even began. Funny thing, Wood's and Prior's 2003 pitch counts didn't bother Rogers back then.

 

True, but I think he deserves credit for giving the Dusty the benefit of the doubt, but not forever. His last sentence in this morning's column synthesized the issue very well - Guillen's SPs through more than 120 pitches 5 times all of last year. Guillen understands how to manage his assets; Dusty does not. Well said.

 

Before we start giving Guillen the "credit" he doesn't deserve let's also remember that he pitched an injured Hermanson in the playoffs (and at various times during the season) and now he's injured again this Spring. Why didn't the wise Ozzie know that Dustin needed to be shut down (for that matter, why didn't Herm Schneider)?

 

Herm Schneider is one of the best trainers in baseball. The Sox shut down Hermanson for at least the last third of the season. If you ask Dustin, he probably wanted to pitch rather badly in the WS, even if that furthered his injury. Backs flare up and I doubt his pitching an inning or two in the WS is the cause of his condition right now.

 

Schneider's value is subjective. They got lucky with Jenks who allowed Hermanson the opportunity to sit for a while. However, they used Hermanson when they knew he wasn't 100%. Players will generally risk their health to get into big games. It's up to the team to monitor them.

 

How can you definitively say that the extra workload last year had no bearing on his current injury status? He is complaining of the same injured back. Your reasoning means that we can't assume that Prior's injury has anything to do with his previous workload...