Jacque Jones

[JWCUB]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt the idea of a discussion board to state your views and opinions, as well as to learn and understand others views and opinions? With an open mind.

 

Do you have the right thread?

 

Also, back on topic:

 

Who do you guys think we should platoon Jones with against lefties?

 

Restovich?

Mabry?

Grissom?

Hairston?

 

Yes I had the right thread. The Mods must have edited the little argument that was festering here. I was attempting to be a peace maker. :lol:

[CubDad4Ever]

UK , great take and the info on approach, sounds alot like my friends (our head baseball coach). However again strikeouts dont carry value at all in and of themselves. Approach is a process , the whiff as a result is what im talking about. Gods Peace and awesome analysis . Coach L

[Banedon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt the idea of a discussion board to state your views and opinions, as well as to learn and understand others views and opinions? With an open mind.

 

Do you have the right thread?

 

Also, back on topic:

 

Who do you guys think we should platoon Jones with against lefties?

 

Restovich?

Mabry?

Grissom?

Hairston?

 

Yes I had the right thread. The Mods must have edited the little argument that was festering here. I was attempting to be a peace maker. :lol:

 

That thread was split off. Sorry about the confusion.

[Houston_Cub_Fan]

Bottom Line: There's no polishing this turd. Jones was not a good signing. We can all hope he performs well, but there's not much to back up that hope.

[goonys evil twin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt the idea of a discussion board to state your views and opinions, as well as to learn and understand others views and opinions? With an open mind.

 

Do you have the right thread?

 

Also, back on topic:

 

Who do you guys think we should platoon Jones with against lefties?

 

Restovich?

Mabry?

Grissom?

Hairston?

 

Restovich is the only one who has a chance of being a decent platoon option, but I'm not holding out much hope considering he doesn't really fit the profile the Cubs are apparantly demanding.

[Warren Brusstar]

Also, can anyone explain why his OBP% is relatively the same at Home and Away when he has:

 

*Roughly the same number of ABs

*Roughly the same number of hits

*Roughly the same number of Walks

*Twenty more Strikeouts at home

 

:-s

 

because strikeouts have nothing to do with OBP.

 

Not to quibble over details, but strikeouts do have something to do with OBP. Every time a player strikes out, he doesn't reach base. So, your statement is inaccurate.

 

It is accurate to say that a player's percentage of strikeouts to total outs has nothing to do with OBP. In other words, if a player makes 400 outs, it is irrelevant to his OBP whether he strikes out 1 time or 400 times.

Edited February 3, 2006 by Warren Brusstar

[Warren Brusstar]

Not all contact is contact. But strikeouts are never of value. Sometimes i believe people confuse a high ops guy with huge whiff totals as validating as strikeouts are not bad. Striking out is never productive , all things equal. I did not mean this as an inditment of anyone in particular. Just having read some articles where those lines seemed blurred. God Bless and great takes everyone. Coach L.

 

Wrong. The average strikout requires far more pitches than the average ground out. With no one on base, it is far better to have a 10 pitch strikeout than a 1 pitch groundout.

[CubDad4Ever]

So a 10 pitch strikeout is equal to a 10 pitch at bat groundout that forces in a run. Look at both my posts , i am not arguing approach. The result of a strikeout has no benefit. God Bless and Great takes ya all Coach L.

[Magnetic Curses]

Also, can anyone explain why his OBP% is relatively the same at Home and Away when he has:

 

*Roughly the same number of ABs

*Roughly the same number of hits

*Roughly the same number of Walks

*Twenty more Strikeouts at home

 

:-s

 

because strikeouts have nothing to do with OBP.

 

Not to quibble over details, but strikeouts do have something to do with OBP. Every time a player strikes out, he doesn't reach base. So, your statement is inaccurate.

 

It is accurate to say that a player's percentage of strikeouts to total outs has nothing to do with OBP. In other words, if a player makes 400 outs, it is irrelevant to his OBP whether he strikes out 1 time or 400 times.

 

insomuch as a strikeout is an out, you're right. but the specific form of the out irrelevant.

[goonys evil twin]

So a 10 pitch strikeout is equal to a 10 pitch at bat groundout that forces in a run. Look at both my posts , i am not arguing approach. The result of a strikeout has no benefit. God Bless and Great takes ya all Coach L.

 

Weird, that has nothing to do with what he wrote.

[Balsa]

Restovich is the only one who has a chance of being a decent platoon option, but I'm not holding out much hope considering he doesn't really fit the profile the Cubs are apparantly demanding.

 

Well I certainly hope we find someone. There is a great article right here from the Hardball Times specifically about how bad JJ is against left-handers, and how much it cost the twins when they kept running him out there.

 

Suffice to say, Jones turns into Neifi against left-handers, and to quote the article:

Once Twins fans take off their rose-colored glasses though, I would hope it becomes apparent that Jones has proven, time after time, season after season, that he just cannot hit left-handed pitching. I wonder why people seem to have a problem -- and I'm talking both Ron Gardenhire and Twins fans -- recognizing the need for him to not play against lefties. I mean, you wouldn't play Rey Ordonez, Neifi Perez, Mike Matheny or Rey Sanchez in right field against lefties, so why would you play someone who hits like they do?

 

Also in the article they mention how well Restovich performed in the minors against lefties.

[Balsa]

Also, there's another article from the Hardball Times right here that shows some graphs over the last few years regarding his BB/K ratio, his ISO, and his BABIP.

 

Interesting stuff.

[CubDad4Ever]

Goony God Luv ya, yes it does. When people are trying to argue a strikout is more valuable than a productive out in the same context my friend , the statment needs to be made. My rationale behind posting in this thread is as follows. I think some people are trying to argue its okay to be a high ops whiffer. I have no problem with that. However a whiff in and of its self carries no value. So a person who makes contact can be in a position to aid a team with an out.

Arguing strikeouts are better than other outs , without context such as a 10 pitch at bat vrs a 1 pitch hack out dont carry factual weight. Gods Peace and I wish i had enough baseball ability to get the chance to whiff at that level. Coach L.

[Magnetic Curses]

So a 10 pitch strikeout is equal to a 10 pitch at bat groundout that forces in a run. Look at both my posts , i am not arguing approach. The result of a strikeout has no benefit. God Bless and Great takes ya all Coach L.

 

a strikeout consumes at least 3 pitches, a groundout can be on one pitch. this is where it's value lies. unless you would argue that pitchers never get tired if they throw a lot of pitches.

[goonys evil twin]

Arguing strikeouts are better than other outs , without context such as a 10 pitch at bat vrs a 1 pitch hack out dont carry factual weight.

 

Actually it does. You just refuse to think about it. And you completely misrepresented what the other poster wrote. But then again, you've been doing that ever since you started posting, so it shouldn't surprise me by now.

[UBlink]

So a 10 pitch strikeout is equal to a 10 pitch at bat groundout that forces in a run. Look at both my posts , i am not arguing approach. The result of a strikeout has no benefit. God Bless and Great takes ya all Coach L.

 

Here's what the poster wrote:

 

Wrong. The average strikout requires far more pitches than the average ground out. With no one on base, it is far better to have a 10 pitch strikeout than a 1 pitch groundout. [emphasis added]

 

He was not comparing strikeouts to groundouts with the same number of pitches. He was noting that the average strikeout makes the pitcher work harder than the average groundout. On that criteria alone, the strikeout is to be preferred to the groundout. There may be other criteria favoring the groundout (like advancing the runner). There are others favoring the strikeout (reducing the likelihood of a double play). The net effect would have to be determined empirically.

[CubDad4Ever]

Goony, now we get to the crux of the argument , your feelings tword me. My arguments have been extremly positive. Check my latest posts. Misrepresentation runs both ways. Unless you think you have it all wired. I know i dont (my wife would not let me get away with that) Like you , ill feel free to post and disagree on some points . Gods Peace and I hope you have a great day. Coach L.

[Warren Brusstar]

Arguing strikeouts are better than other outs , without context such as a 10 pitch at bat vrs a 1 pitch hack out dont carry factual weight.

 

 

Clearly, where a ground out can move a runner over, it is better than a strikeout.

 

Just as clearly, a 10 pitch strikeout is better than a 1 pitch ground out with no one on base.

 

You can't possibly contend that when no one is on base, a ground out is more valuable than a strikeout. So your "argument," is just as context dependent as mine.

[Magnetic Curses]

Goony, now we get to the crux of the argument , your feelings tword me. My arguments have been extremly positive. Check my latest posts. Misrepresentation runs both ways. Unless you think you have it all wired. I know i dont (my wife would not let me get away with that) Like you , ill feel free to post and disagree on some points . Gods Peace and I hope you have a great day. Coach L.

 

just stop it.

[Banedon]

Drop the personal stuff everyone.

[JWCUB]

Drop the personal stuff everyone.

 

Seems like everyone is "ouchy" today.

[imb]

So a 10 pitch strikeout is equal to a 10 pitch at bat groundout that forces in a run. Look at both my posts , i am not arguing approach. The result of a strikeout has no benefit. God Bless and Great takes ya all Coach L.

 

Hahah, that is a deliberate misrepresentation of what he said. I can't imagine why you would do that, unless you just really dont care enough to actually read and comprehend what other people post.

[CubDad4Ever]

Warren, you are dead correct that my argument is as dependent on context. I guess thats what i try to get across sometimes . There are many tremendous takes on this board and i will take the road God wants me to in saying . When i have been needlessly argumentive , i apologize. Im not going to worry about who else needs work . I enjoy the debate and its always fun to talk about the cubs. Again thanks for the great takes and i may not always agree . but hey i dont expect anyone to have to agree with what i say. Gods Peace and hope your days go easy. CoachL