Abreu to Houston Rumor

[Blueheart05]

Hendry is, rightly, not going to deal Pie, so that's not realistic.

 

You have no idea what Hendry will or won't do, unless you have some personal relationship with Jim that I'm unaware of? Dealing Pie in a package for a player like Abreu should be a no-brainer.

 

I know I'm going to get killed for this, but so be it.

 

Why are we anxious to trade a 20 year old centerfielder who scouts well and put up a .903 OPS in Double-A at age 20 for a 32 year old rightfielder who couldn't get his OPS over .900 last season playing in one of the best offensive parks in the National League, posted a .787 OPS after the All-Star break, and is due $30 million over the next two seasons?

 

And not only him, but other valuable players, too?

 

Goodness gracious.

 

There's quite a few reasons. Pie is not a sure thing. Sure he's put up some good minor league numbers and as you said, scouts well, but everyone remembers the Corey Pattersons, Hee Seop Chois, and other Cubs prospects who were supposed to be cant-miss prospects and turned into nothing great. If you can get stud value for Pie, you did it. And yes, Abreu IS a stud. He's had only 1 year since 1998 with an OBP below .400 (in 2001 he only posted a .393 OBP). He also has had a slugging at .468 or better every year since 1998. Is that not enough? He has also stolen 19 or more bases every year since 98. (Just for the record, I dont think his stolen bases are much of an asset b/c he gets caught a lot, but his overall speed on the bases and in the field are nice to have). He also has a very good arm and pretty good in the outfield. Basically he walks like crazy, gets a lot of extra base hits, and plays good defense. I'd trade an unknown and unproven player like Pie in a heartbeat. Also, the money isn't much of a factor because we have a lot of leftover money to spend. Basically Pie for Abreu is a no-brainer in my eyes.

 

 

It depends on the other players involved. I would probably ask for some money on the deal as well. Abreu has a few good years left but he isn't in his prime.

[Blueheart05]

we have a lot of leftover money to spend.

 

Separate issue, but I don't believe we have as much money left to spend as most here think we do. This is especially true if Prior is indeed eligible for arbitration.

 

Prior, Zambrano, and don't forget that Hendry has already said publically that he hopes to ink DLee to a n extension before the season starts.

 

Edit: Sullivan says there are six arbitration eligible Cubs:

 

Carlos Zambrano and Mark Prior are among the six arbitration-eligible Cubs, along with center fielders Juan Pierre and Corey Patterson, second baseman Jerry Hairston and reliever Will Ohman.

 

Trib

[ChiCubsFan]

Hendry is, rightly, not going to deal Pie, so that's not realistic.

 

You have no idea what Hendry will or won't do, unless you have some personal relationship with Jim that I'm unaware of? Dealing Pie in a package for a player like Abreu should be a no-brainer.

 

I know I'm going to get killed for this, but so be it.

 

Why are we anxious to trade a 20 year old centerfielder who scouts well and put up a .903 OPS in Double-A at age 20 for a 32 year old rightfielder who couldn't get his OPS over .900 last season playing in one of the best offensive parks in the National League, posted a .787 OPS after the All-Star break, and is due $30 million over the next two seasons?

 

And not only him, but other valuable players, too?

 

Goodness gracious.

 

I agree. I also don't think the Cubs would give up 4 young players to get him. The loss of Pie, Williams, Nova, and Wuertz (as someone suggested) would hurt the Cubs more in the long run. On the other hand, I see the Lidge deal as more of an equal value trade. Lidge will be 30 next year.

 

Well Abreu will be a solid players for quite a few more years. Novoa and Wuertz are easily replaceable and Williams has the ceiling of a 3rd starter so he's not hard to replace either. Also, who really cares about the long run at this point? It's been almost 100 years. Adding Abreu to this team instantly makes us a world series contender and possibly the favorites (not that it matters). I don't see how you don't make that trade.

[goonys evil twin]

I know I'm going to get killed for this, but so be it.

 

Why are we anxious to trade a 20 year old centerfielder who scouts well and put up a .903 OPS in Double-A at age 20 for a 32 year old rightfielder who couldn't get his OPS over .900 last season playing in one of the best offensive parks in the National League, posted a .787 OPS after the All-Star break, and is due $30 million over the next two seasons?

 

And not only him, but other valuable players, too?

 

Goodness gracious.

 

Goodness gracious? You act as if it's the most bizarre concept to trade a good prospect for a good major leaguer. Pierre had great AA numbers, in half a season, then got injured and couldn't come back despite constant updates that he was due back "in a few days". Those numbers were also out of line with the rest of his pro career.

 

Ideally I wouldn't trade Pie in an Abreu move, just like I'd like to hold onto Cedeno in a Tejada deal. But Hendry put the Cubs in this position. They don't have anything to hold onto, the need to win is now, not in 3-4 years when, if all goes well, Pie will be a good OF. You want to worry about the 2009 season, then get ready to worry about Zambrano, Prior, Ramirez, Lee and a whole new bunch of bullpen questions. 1990-2001 was the time to worry about holding onto all the prospects and waiting for the right moment to go for the gold. Now is the time to try and win. The Cubs thought they could draft and develop a bunch of great pitchers, field a core group of hitters from the minors, and then trade the pitching surplus for the difference making bats they needed when the time came. Well, that plan is gone. They haven't developed any position players yet, and I'm not counting on them to develop a bunch anytime soon and restock the soon-to-be depleting pitching.

 

You list only the best parts of Pie's attributes and only the worst part of Abreu's. And you have the gall to say goodness gracious when people talk of trading one for the other?

[waffle]

phils need starting pitching. They have a pretty good offense and defense. Truthfully, they could use 2 starting arms. I would HAVE to think any deal involving Abreu would get them at least one solid starter in return.

 

I would think they would love williams. Young, good upside. Of course, we would have to throw in more, but I would think Williams would be a good cornerstone piece of that deal. IMHO of course.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Adding Abreu to this team instantly makes us a world series contender and possibly the favorites (not that it matters). I don't see how you don't make that trade.

 

I think we're still an Abreu, Tejada, and healthy Wood away from being considered WS favorites right now.

[Magnetic Curses]

It depends on the other players involved. I would probably ask for some money on the deal as well. Abreu has a few good years left but he isn't in his prime.

 

he's not exactly out of his prime, either.

 

come on, he'll be just 32 at the start of the season. that's pretty prime in my book.

[goonys evil twin]

It depends on the other players involved. I would probably ask for some money on the deal as well. Abreu has a few good years left but he isn't in his prime.

 

he's not exactly out of his prime, either.

 

come on, he'll be just 32 at the start of the season. that's pretty prime in my book.

 

32 is past prime, clearly. But Abreu in his prime was amazing. And 32-33 isn't really old. Abreu past his prime is still quite possibly the best hitter on the Cubs, he'd easily be the best OF option, and the only possible adaquate middle of the order option on the team (barring a Tejada deal).

[Blueheart05]

Hendry is, rightly, not going to deal Pie, so that's not realistic.

 

You have no idea what Hendry will or won't do, unless you have some personal relationship with Jim that I'm unaware of? Dealing Pie in a package for a player like Abreu should be a no-brainer.

 

I know I'm going to get killed for this, but so be it.

 

Why are we anxious to trade a 20 year old centerfielder who scouts well and put up a .903 OPS in Double-A at age 20 for a 32 year old rightfielder who couldn't get his OPS over .900 last season playing in one of the best offensive parks in the National League, posted a .787 OPS after the All-Star break, and is due $30 million over the next two seasons?

 

And not only him, but other valuable players, too?

 

Goodness gracious.

 

I agree. I also don't think the Cubs would give up 4 young players to get him. The loss of Pie, Williams, Nova, and Wuertz (as someone suggested) would hurt the Cubs more in the long run. On the other hand, I see the Lidge deal as more of an equal value trade. Lidge will be 30 next year.

 

Well Abreu will be a solid players for quite a few more years. Novoa and Wuertz are easily replaceable and Williams has the ceiling of a 3rd starter so he's not hard to replace either. Also, who really cares about the long run at this point? It's been almost 100 years. Adding Abreu to this team instantly makes us a world series contender and possibly the favorites (not that it matters). I don't see how you don't make that trade.

 

How many is quite a few? He's 32 years old so we can hope that he maintains his current numbers for the next 3 years. The guy is on the otherside of his prime. BTW, I'm not saying I wouldn't make the deal (see my later post) but it depends on the other players involved. Pie isn't a deal breaker to me especially with the acquisition of Pierre and seeming revolving door in RF.

[jtownie]

It's not a difficult argument to make that Williams(or any starting pitcher of a certain ability) is at least as valuable as Lidge, if not more.

 

WHAT?!? Williams is at least as valuable as Lidge? Please, let's hear this argument...

 

Williams(or other SP) is going to pitch 3 times as many innings as Lidge will in a given season. Therefore, even though his performance isn't as dominant as Lidge's, he's worth more to the team because the quantity outweighs the marginal difference in quality.

 

probably only twice as many, but your point is well taken.

 

williams is a quality starter.

 

The question is, do GMs think this way? While we can all agree that Williams over the course of baseball season is more valuable I am not quite certain that GMs feel that way.

[ChiCubsFan]

Adding Abreu to this team instantly makes us a world series contender and possibly the favorites (not that it matters). I don't see how you don't make that trade.

 

I think we're still an Abreu, Tejada, and healthy Wood away from being considered WS favorites right now.

 

I did say possibly, not that it matters. The point is that we are contenders. You can't argue that adding Abreu and only really losing Williams (from the Pie, Williams, Novoa, Wuertz trade somebody suggested) doesnt make us contenders.

[RockTheIvy]

Plus we all know that we won't have Prior and Z forever and that Aramis will probably opt out after next year to see what he can get in a new contract. Pie may be fantastic, but Abreu is the type of player that could put us over the top. Imagine this lineup:

 

Pierre

Walker

Lee

Abreu

ARam

Barrett

Murton

Cedeno

 

Division Title.

[Tracer Bullet]

Goodness gracious? You act as if it's the most bizarre concept to trade a good prospect for a good major leaguer. Pierre had great AA numbers, in half a season, then got injured and couldn't come back despite constant updates that he was due back "in a few days". Those numbers were also out of line with the rest of his pro career.

 

You meant Pie, right?

[CubfaninCA]

Good to see there's lots of faith in JWill. Guess this team isn't so horrible afterall.

 

Hawk for JWill = another steal

Edited December 20, 2005 by CubfaninCA

[RockTheIvy]

Good to see there's lots of faith in JWill. Guess this team isn't so horrible afterall.

 

I have faith in him, but I think his value is as a starter, and I'm afraid they signed Glendon for that role.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Good to see there's lots of faith in JWill. Guess this team isn't so horrible afterall.

 

The pitching isn't the problem.

[goonys evil twin]

Goodness gracious? You act as if it's the most bizarre concept to trade a good prospect for a good major leaguer. Pierre had great AA numbers, in half a season, then got injured and couldn't come back despite constant updates that he was due back "in a few days". Those numbers were also out of line with the rest of his pro career.

 

You meant Pie, right?

 

oops, yes, Pie. I've done that 5 or 6 times and usually catch myself.

[Blueheart05]

Good to see there's lots of faith in JWill. Guess this team isn't so horrible afterall.

 

I have faith in him, but I think his value is as a starter, and I'm afraid they signed Glendon for that role.

 

My feeling is that Rusch was signed as a backup for Wood. However, Williams is a better pitcher than Rusch and should have no problem outdueling him for a rotation spot (if it comes down to that).

[CubfaninCA]

Good to see there's lots of faith in JWill. Guess this team isn't so horrible afterall.

 

I have faith in him, but I think his value is as a starter, and I'm afraid they signed Glendon for that role.

 

Didn't Dusty favor Williams over Rusch as a starter last year?? Can't see anything that would change that.

[CubfaninCA]

Good to see there's lots of faith in JWill. Guess this team isn't so horrible afterall.

 

The pitching isn't the problem.

 

Good pitching can take a team a long way. Do you see Williams as a solid #3 next year?

[RockTheIvy]

Good to see there's lots of faith in JWill. Guess this team isn't so horrible afterall.

 

I have faith in him, but I think his value is as a starter, and I'm afraid they signed Glendon for that role.

 

Didn't Dusty favor Williams over Rusch as a starter last year?? Can't see anything that would change that.

 

I hope you're right. It would be nice to see both Williams and the team go forward next year.

[Guest]

My feeling is that Rusch was signed as a backup for Wood. However, Williams is a better pitcher than Rusch and should have no problem outdueling him for a rotation spot (if it comes down to that).

Maybe by the time September rolls around. (Sorry... I still have nightmares about the five months Shawn Estes was allowed to stink up an otherwise outstanding 2003 rotation.)

[RockTheIvy]

My feeling is that Rusch was signed as a backup for Wood. However, Williams is a better pitcher than Rusch and should have no problem outdueling him for a rotation spot (if it comes down to that).

Maybe by the time September rolls around. (Sorry... I still have nightmares about the five months Shawn Estes was allowed to stink up an otherwise outstanding 2003 rotation.)

 

Gotta have that crafty lefty.

[goonys evil twin]

Good to see there's lots of faith in JWill. Guess this team isn't so horrible afterall.

 

The pitching isn't the problem.

 

Good pitching can take a team a long way. Do you see Williams as a solid #3 next year?

 

On a team with great hitting Williams could be a solid #3. But on a team with average or below average hitting, like the Cubs, you need 4 guys better than Williams.

[Hosak8]

It's not a difficult argument to make that Williams(or any starting pitcher of a certain ability) is at least as valuable as Lidge, if not more.

 

WHAT?!? Williams is at least as valuable as Lidge? Please, let's hear this argument...

 

Williams(or other SP) is going to pitch 3 times as many innings as Lidge will in a given season. Therefore, even though his performance isn't as dominant as Lidge's, he's worth more to the team because the quantity outweighs the marginal difference in quality.

 

Wow. Only here could Williams be classified with Lidge. The tradition of WAY overvaluing Cubs players and prospects is alive and well.

 

So, your logic is that Williams is as valuable as Lidge because of the innings he eats? I guess the same could be said for Rusch as well then, right?

 

And, the suggestion that there is only a marginal difference in quality is a joke. In around 50 less innings, Lidge won only two fewer games than Williams, struck out many more hitters, had a much lower ERA, and a considerably lower WHIP in 2005. All is true for their 3 year averages, as well. Yes, Williams is younger. No, he isn't (in any way, shape, or form) comparable to one of the most dominant closers in the game.

 

You really wouldn't trade Williams for Lidge? You'd be crazy. Williams is a dime a dozen. Lidge is one of about 4 or 5. Several teams have a Williams. Very few have a Lidge.

 

People here really wouldn't trade Williams for Lidge? :roll: