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Offensively Derrek Lee did pretty much nothing to help the Cubs reach the playoffs last year. The Cubs could have put pretty much any first baseman in baseball at first last year and the Cubs still would have made the playoffs easily. His defense is nice, but an .823 OPS as a first baseman just doesn't cut it. I'm not saying we should dump him just for salary reasons, but I would not mind trading him at all. If he hits like he did in the last 5 months of last season he's going to be hurting the team. Oh, and Derrek Lee was not a "solid player" for the last 5 months of last season so there is no reason to think he'll get better and not worse over the next couple of years. He was terrible.

That's one way to look at it. The other way is that the starting pitcher will actually control more PAs than a hitter over the course of a full season.

Pretty ugly stuff. Last year they were swept by a team that was swept by a team that was swept by the World Series champions. That is literally as far away you can be from winning the World Series while actually making the playoffs.

Wait, it doesn't matter if he was helped greatly by his own park? Seriously? It really seems like you're reaching now. Of course it matters, because if any other player was put in Hamilton's position this season, he would have recieved the same beneifits. So because Hamilton gets that benefit, he is more valuable than those other guys? No, the stadium is just more valuable. This is relevant because every visiting player that steps into that staidum gets the same advantage, putting Hamilton less in front of the curve. Put it this way. Let's say the Rangers trade for Mark DeRosa, who then goes .300/.385/.525 with 26 home runs next season Meanwhile, Adrian Gonzalez goes .285/.365/.525 while playing in Petco. Pretend for a minute that they both played the same position... so who was more valuable? By your logic, DeRosa would be, although Gonzalez would have put up better numbers if they both played in the same park. That makes sense to you? If position is factored into MVP voting, then ballparks should be as well. Of course DeRosa would be. You're mixing up predictors for future results and actual results. Going forward Gonzalez would obviously be the best bet, but that's just not what happened. That is seriously some flawed logic. A players worth, value, and overall skill level is determined by those around him. If the average OPS was 1.500, a 1.100 OPS would be considered terrible. When hitters step into a park like Arlington that turns every body into a better hitter, you are less ahead of the curve. If it turns a .750 OPS hitter into an .800 OPS hitter, then a 1.000 hitter is no more valuable than a .950 OPS hitter who plays somewhere else, because that is how far ahead of the curve he is. It's not the "most productive hitter" award, it's the most valuable player. In the example I gave with Gonzalez and DeRosa, Gonzalez would not be the most productive hitter, but would be the most valuable. If you could choose between the 2 players in the example, knowing both would be playing in the same park, you'd pick Gonzalez..... meaning he had more value.

are you seriously this clueless? lol Yes I am, and so are you. The difference is that I'm not using VORP as an argument and then failing to explain anything about it. Good argument.

Nope, I'm the one whp provides numbers. The rest provide stats that are completely meaningless without explanation.

It really is comical that people flip out whenever anybody questions Hamilton. If you're denying that Arlington pumped up his numbers, you're lying and you know it. If this was any other player, you'd all be agreeing. Instead, you'll keep bringing up numbers that are meaningless without explanation and then blast any blasphemer who questions it. Keep teaming up on us as we provide simple logic though, it sounds fun.

this is not going well for you. Except that they can't explain how parks are factored into those stats, so it's had for me to take them seriously in that regard. Seriously, I have provided reasoning with facts that can easily be explained. They are tossing out stats that CANNOT be explained by them, and instead are passing off somebody else's work as their own argument. Hamilton's splits are easily explained. The effect that Arlington had on other hitters this easily explained. I'm still waiting on the VORP explanation. Seriously, it makes their arguments look even weaker. "Ihave no idea how this stat is formulated or how parks are factored in.....but it totally makes me right. You can't argue it, because it's a stat that shows I'm correct." If Hamilton plays in a neutral park in 2008, he's an .850 OPS guy and we're not having this argument. PERIOD.

Can you not read? Stop making assumptions that are clearly wrong. I already said I like Hamilton, I really do. When the rumors of getting him popped up in the offseason I wanted him...badly. I just don't think he should be top 10 in the MVP voting. I know people who are recovering drug addicts, so stop acting like I have a problem with that.

At least I'm not hand picking a single stat and then acting like it shows you're 100% correct. Look at his home/road splits and what Arlington did for other hitters in 2008 and then try to tell me with a straight face that he was the 5th most valuable player in the league. If you do you're just lying to yourself and are biased. Pretty simple. 3rd best hitter on his own team. 139 OPS+ in Arlington, obviously significantly better than what Arlington did for other hitters in '08. Biased. Nope, just not comprehending what I'm writing. This thread is a perfect example of the what OP was talking about. As soon as you question anything that has to do with Josh Hamilton, you get destroyed...but not with facts. People just can't stand to fathom the idea that Hamilton might not be a god.

I wasn't bringing up Kinsler and Bradley in terms of MVP voting, because obviously the injuries would play a factor. My point in bringing them up was to show that Hamilton wasn't even a top 2 offensive player on his own team this season, yet apparently he was some freak of nature while on the field. He's "The natural".. but only when Bradley and Kinsler are on the DL. When they're healthy it's just not fair to ocmpare them..because Hamilton clearly rubbed off on them, allowing them to outperform him. What a great story. Okay, so you're touting VORP so hard.... so can you give me a detailed walkthrough of how stadiums are taken into account? I want equations and all that. I know it does, but I'd like to hear all aobut it from you.... otherwise you're just throwing out a number that somebody else came up with and passing it off as your own argument. Umm, I am? No I'm not, you're just choosing not to listen to what I'm saying. What metric am I denying? VORP and what else? I didn't deny the fact that he had just the 16th best OPS in the league. Where are all these denials from me? I asked you to explain the home/road part of VORP and that's it. Actually, you're are the one that is sticking to one metric and denying everything else. "Well yeah, all the other evidence shows that he shouldn't be in the top 10 of MVP voting, but VORP shows him as 5th so that's all that matters. I don't really know how home/road is factored into VORP either, but I bet it's good. The guy who made it is really smart."

At least I'm not hand picking a single stat and then acting like it shows you're 100% correct. Look at his home/road splits and what Arlington did for other hitters in 2008 and then try to tell me with a straight face that he was the 5th most valuable player in the league. If you do you're just lying to yourself and are biased. Pretty simple. 3rd best hitter on his own team. 139 OPS+ in Arlington, obviously significantly better than what Arlington did for other hitters in '08. AGAIN, I'm not saying he wasn't a good hitter. Seriously, I don't know why hard to understand. If Pujols was traded to Texas and put up a 1.450 OPS and I stated that his numbers were inflated by that park, it wouldn't mean that I was denying that he's a good hitter.

At least I'm not hand picking a single stat and then acting like it shows you're 100% correct. Look at his home/road splits and what Arlington did for other hitters in 2008 and then try to tell me with a straight face that he was the 5th most valuable player in the league. If you do you're just lying to yourself and are biased. Pretty simple. 3rd best hitter on his own team.

Obviously not park adjusted enough.

I really don't think I am. It's not that bad on this board, but the way most baseball people talk about what he did this season is way over the top and I think that will be reflected in the MVP voting.

Wait, it doesn't matter if he was helped greatly by his own park? Seriously? It really seems like you're reaching now. Of course it matters, because if any other player was put in Hamilton's position this season, he would have recieved the same beneifits. So because Hamilton gets that benefit, he is more valuable than those other guys? No, the stadium is just more valuable. This is relevant because every visiting player that steps into that staidum gets the same advantage, putting Hamilton less in front of the curve. Put it this way. Let's say the Rangers trade for Mark DeRosa, who then goes .300/.385/.525 with 26 home runs next season Meanwhile, Adrian Gonzalez goes .285/.365/.525 while playing in Petco. Pretend for a minute that they both played the same position... so who was more valuable? By your logic, DeRosa would be, although Gonzalez would have put up better numbers if they both played in the same park. That makes sense to you? If position is factored into MVP voting, then ballparks should be as well.

Not one game at Arlington....but a bunch at GAB which was the 7th best hitters park in 2007. Home 2007- 312/.372/.617 Road 2007- .274/.365/.497 Seriously. If Josh Hamtiton played for the Angels this year he'd probably be an .850 OPS guy Arlington turned Milton Bradley into a 1.000 OPS guy this season. It turned Malron Byrdi nto an .842 OPS guy. So yeah, when you consider that a .901 OPS isn't even that special to begin with, I don't think Hamilton should be anywhere near the top of the MVP voting. He used to do drugs and stuff though....so let's just give it to him. :shock: Yeah, a .901 OPS is nothing special. Just an easy top 20-25 player in the league. And 16th best this year. Nothing special though. Yea? I don't get what you're saying. We're talking aobut MVP...the most valuable player in the league.....not a "top 20-25 player". I never said a .901 OPS isn't good. It's good and makes you one of the top hitters in the game....but producing at the level that is matched by SEVERAL players every year......so is that "special"? You'll have to explain to me how that is special. I guess I'm weird for thinking that the MVP should go to somebody who was better than "top 20-25 player" in the league. Reading comprehension > you because he's a centerfielder and not a corner if/of? But the media doesn't say "great hitter for a center fielder." It's always "historic season for the cinderella story Josh Hamilton." Again, I'm not saying he wasn't good this year. I like Josh hamilton, I really do, I'm just sick of the ball licking over his good-but-nothing-special season. I mean come on, he had the 16th best OPS in the league while playing in the best hitters park in all of baseball, then I get blasted for saying that's "good but not special". I mean, if 16th best in your league while being helped tremendously by the park isn't special, then I don't know what is!

I guess you missed the original point of this thread...aka his massive home/road splits from playing in a stadium that turned Milton Bradley into a 1.000 hitter. Josh Hamilton- 3rd best hitter on his own team in 2008 and a living legend for it

By the way, you've just taken on a sacred cow and there's pretty much no way you're winning this one despite how correct you might be. Josh Hamilton deserves everything, period. They really should just change the team name to the Texas Fighting Hamiltons. Outstanding story. 16th best in OPS rankings, but number 1 in our hearts.

Not one game at Arlington....but a bunch at GAB which was the 7th best hitters park in 2007. Home 2007- 312/.372/.617 Road 2007- .274/.365/.497 Seriously. If Josh Hamtiton played for the Angels this year he'd probably be an .850 OPS guy Arlington turned Milton Bradley into a 1.000 OPS guy this season. It turned Malron Byrdi nto an .842 OPS guy. So yeah, when you consider that a .901 OPS isn't even that special to begin with, I don't think Hamilton should be anywhere near the top of the MVP voting. He used to do drugs and stuff though....so let's just give it to him. :shock: Yeah, a .901 OPS is nothing special. Just an easy top 20-25 player in the league. And 16th best this year. Nothing special though. Yea? I don't get what you're saying. We're talking aobut MVP...the most valuable player in the league.....not a "top 20-25 player". I never said a .901 OPS isn't good. It's good and makes you one of the top hitters in the game....but producing at the level that is matched by SEVERAL players every year......so is that "special"? You'll have to explain to me how that is special. I guess I'm weird for thinking that the MVP should go to somebody who was better than "top 20-25 player" in the league. Reading comprehension > you

9 people actually voted other than "no"? The low standards for some people are pathetic. There's no reason anyody should be happy with this season. 97 wins means asolutely nothing when you get swept in the first round. Nothing. All it does is make the sweep even worse.

Not one game at Arlington....but a bunch at GAB which was the 7th best hitters park in 2007. Home 2007- 312/.372/.617 Road 2007- .274/.365/.497 Seriously. If Josh Hamtiton played for the Angels this year he'd probably be an .850 OPS guy Arlington turned Milton Bradley into a 1.000 OPS guy this season. It turned Malron Byrdi nto an .842 OPS guy. So yeah, when you consider that a .901 OPS isn't even that special to begin with, I don't think Hamilton should be anywhere near the top of the MVP voting. He used to do drugs and stuff though....so let's just give it to him.

Same garbage as last year with the Bears. Have the game in your back pocket and give it up on the final drive. The defense has no balls whatsoever.

Wait, who said anything about him being a superstar? I never said anything about that or Pedroia either. Also, Todd Walker had a better career than Erstad at the plate.

Anybody else want to see what he can do over a full season? I think he should either be traded (if Hendry could get true value) or given a full time job. Obviously my first choice would be to get a good LH RF, but if the options are guys like Aubrey Huff and Bobby Abreu I'd rather just slide DeRosa to RF and give Fontenot a full time spot. I just don't see what good RF are available that we could realistically obtain. I'm just really curious about Fontenot. Is he a .750 OPS guy? .800? .850? It's amazing how the ball comes off his bat. It's not like he came out of nowhere either. He's a former first round pick and he's pretty much performed at all levels. Let's see what he can do.