soccer10k

That's just silly. Going to a Cubs game and booing Cubs players is bad enough. But you are going in have already dediced in advance who you are going to boo, that's worse. And then you pick out two guys who are playing poorly and leave off another. If anybody deserves to be booed, it's the players who makes the same stupid mental mistakes over and over. I have a tough time booing performance. But it's not that hard to boo guys who routinely get picked off base, miss cut-off men and roll the ball in from the outfield. Baseball is a game of failure. You win on the margins. Slumps happen, and have to be tolerated, as annoying as they are. Mental mistakes should not be tolerated, and repeated mental mistakes absolutely cannot be tolerated. It's also players that aren't playing anywhere near the level they should be playing at. But not players who repeatedly make mental errors that cost their teams runs in the process, errors than can theoretically be fixed with the snap of the fingers? Are you serious? I said also, i.e. in addition to. Does that make sense to you or do I need to explain the concept of "also" a little bit better for you? What you nee to explain kid, is how you will boo Aramis and Pierre, but don't find Jones's mental retardation while on the basepaths boo worthy. Struggling at the plate happens and is tougher to snap out of. Not getting picked off of 2nd for the 3rd time in two weeks should be EASILY avoidable, but to you, is not boo worthy. I repeat, are you seroius? Don't try to use the fact that I'm most likely younger than you as an argument. That's just stupid. Aramis has struggled FOR A MONTH AND A HALF. Two or three weeks is one thing, but a month and a half, please. Look at the whole body of work. Jones>ARam so far. Will it stay that way? I sure as hell hope not for ARam's sake. But right now it is.

Good for you. Jones is your guy. There's nothing wrong with it. Jones isn't "my guy." I don't love him but at the same time I don't hate him. Believe me, there are a number of players that have been in a Cubs uniform that I have disliked more than Jones and a number that I have liked more than Jones. He is definately not "my guy." So you have no issue with Jones being mediocre/bad, because that's all you expect of him, and you expect more from Ramirez and Pierre? Thats why they are called expectations. Jones is living up to the expectations the fans should have had based on his past couple years. Pierre and Aramis aren't. How can you expect a guy to hit .300 when he hasn't done that in a few years? You can't. I EXPECT Aramis to hit .300 because he's done it the last couple years. He set his own high expectations with good play. Jones set low expectations with poor play and has met those expectations.

That's just silly. Going to a Cubs game and booing Cubs players is bad enough. But you are going in have already dediced in advance who you are going to boo, that's worse. And then you pick out two guys who are playing poorly and leave off another. If anybody deserves to be booed, it's the players who makes the same stupid mental mistakes over and over. I have a tough time booing performance. But it's not that hard to boo guys who routinely get picked off base, miss cut-off men and roll the ball in from the outfield. Baseball is a game of failure. You win on the margins. Slumps happen, and have to be tolerated, as annoying as they are. Mental mistakes should not be tolerated, and repeated mental mistakes absolutely cannot be tolerated. It's also players that aren't playing anywhere near the level they should be playing at. But not players who repeatedly make mental errors that cost their teams runs in the process, errors than can theoretically be fixed with the snap of the fingers? Are you serious? I said also, i.e. in addition to. Does that make sense to you or do I need to explain the concept of "also" a little bit better for you?

Good for you. Jones is your guy. There's nothing wrong with it. Jones isn't "my guy." I don't love him but at the same time I don't hate him. Believe me, there are a number of players that have been in a Cubs uniform that I have disliked more than Jones and a number that I have liked more than Jones. He is definately not "my guy."

That's just silly. Going to a Cubs game and booing Cubs players is bad enough. But you are going in have already dediced in advance who you are going to boo, that's worse. And then you pick out two guys who are playing poorly and leave off another. If anybody deserves to be booed, it's the players who makes the same stupid mental mistakes over and over. I have a tough time booing performance. But it's not that hard to boo guys who routinely get picked off base, miss cut-off men and roll the ball in from the outfield. Baseball is a game of failure. You win on the margins. Slumps happen, and have to be tolerated, as annoying as they are. Mental mistakes should not be tolerated, and repeated mental mistakes absolutely cannot be tolerated. It's also players that aren't playing anywhere near the level they should be playing at.

My only point is that people should stop overreacting after 3 pretty good, though not ace-like and 3 poor, though not Rusch-like starts. It just looks foolish in retrospect. I agree. I wasn't happy with his first few starts, but he did show signs. I'm also not saying he's turned the corner, but with two solid starts he's on his way. If he strings together a couple more, then he's back.

Yep. His 15 hop throws, and inability to follow the ball into the outfield should be lauded. I never said I have been completely happy with his play, but Jacque surely isn't boo worthy.

If I went to a Cubs game right now I would boo Aramis and deservedly so. I would also boo Pierre, but I would not boo Jacque.

Aramis has been absolutely pathetic, awful, downright horrible this year. Hey, somebody has to say it.

You keep asking this question like no one has answered you. He's got 3 years of really good performance as a Cub under his belt. People know this. People know he started slow last season. People are confident he'll be where he needs to be when all is said and done. This is not a difficult concept. Over time, good performance will earn you the benefit of the doubt for a while. If he's still struggling into June, I'm sure he'll get booed. Not after a single game last year was Aramis's season-to-date BA below .200. He was under .200 this year for half of April. Here are his stats as of May 16 for the last 2 years: 2005: .250/.324/.492/.816 2006: .215/.295/.415/.710 That's a big difference.

What's the difference, they're both cheaters. Please, lets not insult Sammy anymore with a comparison to Bonds. Of course if people started throwing at Sammy, we (his four remaining fans) would be ticked off. Bonds stands right on top of the plate and Sosa (at least at the end of his career) stood 8 feet off the plate.

Pretty simple actually. Aramis has actually done some good in a Cubs uniform, over a long stretch of time. Jones and Pierre have not. Lots of others Cubs have not. I'm annoyed as hell at Aramis's start. But it wasn't stupid for Hendry to trade for him (even though I wrongfully criticized it at the time). It wasn't stupid for Hendry to sign him. The Pierre and Jones moves were bad from the start, and then they make it worse by playing like crap right from the get-go. You have to build up some equity with the fans if you want to get away with crappy play over an extended period. A minor leaguer can build up that equity by having a quality ride through the minor league season, that is, assuming the fans in question actually pay attention and understand what the minor league progression entails. A veteran can build up that equity by playing well for the team and living up to his contract. Aramis did that for most of his 2.5 years here. He isn't now. He's taking a serious hit on that equity and now has a long way to go to build it back up. But he's nowhere near Jones and Pierre territory. They're two transient squatters who haven't paid a dime in rent yet, let alone built up any equity in the house of Cubs. I didn't ask you to compare Aramis from the past couple years to anybody else. I simply asked when do you stop giving him the benefit of the doubt? It's a month and a half into the year and he's hitting .215. This isn't acceptable for a player making $11 mil a year. If he's as great as people make him out to be, he shouldn't be hitting so poorly with DLee out. I know you are going to be affected by the absence of an MVP candidate but he shouldn't be affected this much. Aramis is performing FAR under what he should be doing. People routinely boo Jones. As was posted in another thread, Dempster was booed when he blew the save. Why doesn't Aramis get booed when he gets out late in the game and strands a couple runners on base?

I think that's a correct gut even though I hope you are wrong. I mean I hope they both come back healthy, but with Prior slated to return first he will get more playing time.

I'm just happy to see the Z pitch that we expected to pitch this year.

6 IP, 93 pitches, 7 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 6 K, 2 BB and he gets the victory and finishes off a sweep of the Nationals.

The syringe getting thrown at Bonds was hilarious. The difference is that the syringe was plastic and wouldn't have hurt Barry. Throwning a ball at a player's head could seriously hurt the player. I'm not saying that throwing anything, whether hard or soft, at a player is right, but there is a difference. I do agree that there is no excuse for throwing anything at a player.

And the fact that the Knicks keep giving away their draft picks.

Don't even try to bring money into it. It's not Jacque's fault that Hendry offered him $16 mil over 3 years. Did he deserve that much? Absolutely not. But you can't possibly tell me that if you were offered more money then you deserved that you wouldn't take it. For the last time: THE CONTRACT ISN'T JACQUE'S FAULT!! BLAME HENDRY FOR IT. Stop using his contract as an excuse. Everybody and their mother knows Jacque is overpaid. That horse has already been eaten away by maggots so there's nothing left to beat.

Glendon Rusch Jerome Williams Angel Guzman Rich Hill Carlos Zambrano (only the beginning of the year)

i think we're looking at the same jacque jones, but we certainly differ as to what constitutes awful. a .301 OBP, for example, is awful. i don't care where it ranks among the rest of this sorry team, it's bad. if you want to compare his #'s to others and rank them, how about ranking his OPS among other rf'ers w/ 80+ abs...he'd be 21st. or his OBP...he'd be 24th. so if you're going to say he's average, at least compare him to the rest of the league instead of his terrible teammates. i do agree w/ you that aramis and pierre have been awful. I guess I just want to hear people rip the other players just as much as Jones. It seems like some people don't like Jones as much as other players and they place more blame on him because of it, which isn't fair to Jacque.

And I think we can all agree that this is completely classless.

all that proves is that everyone else has been equally or more awful. When relating his current numbers to his own career stats, you have to realize his career--especially the last two years--has been pretty mediocre/bad. So the fact he's improved relative to his own suckiness doesn't mean he isn't bad. That said, I agree that Jones--relative to what we'd hoped he might contribute--hasn't been our biggest problem, and it probably isn't fair that he's received so much of the fans' anger. I agree completely with mediocre. Bad? Maybe. But like you said also, the fans would be stupid to expect a 300 BA from Jones. He's given the team exactly what they should have expected out of him and I don't think he can be consided awful because of that. So would you say that Aramis has been awful? Cedeno? Murton? Walker? Cedeno's BA is slightly higher than Jones but his slugging is far below. Murton's BA is slightly higher and a much higher OBP but his SLG is well below. Same goes for Walker. But nobody ever says that these guys have been awful. My point, which you understood, is that other people have been just as bad and worse than Jones.

If I were to guess, I'd say that he'll have one more start (whether in Mesa or in rehab) than Wood did. And his rehab assignment would likely start on Memorial Day or later. That's why I was confused when somebody mentioned in the game thread that he could be back by Memorial Day. I figured the beginning of June at the earliest. If he was going to return by Memorial Day he would have to have made a minor league rehab start already.

And I'm trying to say that more people than just Jones should be blamed. I agree that Jones isn't free from blame, but it seems like he is used as a scapegoat more than anybody else. At first it was his hitting. But then he started to hit and people moved on to something else. The guy had something thrown at him today. Is that really justified? No. A lot of people look at his contract (which isn't his fault) and don't give him a chance to play. I don't mind placing some blame on Jacque but blame other people also. I brought this up in another thread, but Aramis deserves more blame than Jones does right now as does Pierre. The pitching staff hasn't exactly been up to par either. yeah, because tons of people in this thread have been saying that throwing stuff at jones is justified. come on. and who hasn't given him a chance to play? nobody here is stopping him. what does that even mean? jones deserves the blame he's gotten b/c he's been awful. he's sucked offensively, defensively, and on the bases. just b/c everyone else has sucked too doesn't mean jones gets a free pass. By just give him a chance to play I mean that people have been booing him from the start. Even before he stepped foot on the field he was being criticized because of his contract. Look back at the first week of the season, and he was getting ripped because of his slow start. Jones has been awful? I beg to differ. Where on earth do you get that from? Is there another Jacque Jones that I don't know about? Right now Jones is on pace for 29 HR (a career high) and 83 RBI's (almost a career high - 85). He's currently hitting 264/301/472/773 which are currently 5th/5th/2nd/2nd on the team for players with over 90 AB's. His BA and SLG are up from the previous two years but his OBP is down slightly. Where do you get awful from? Aramis has been awful. Pierre has been awful. Jones has been average. I'm not saying that he should be free from blame and shouldn't be given a free pass so I don't know where you got that one from.

And I'm trying to say that more people than just Jones should be blamed. I agree that Jones isn't free from blame, but it seems like he is used as a scapegoat more than anybody else. At first it was his hitting. But then he started to hit and people moved on to something else. The guy had something thrown at him today. Is that really justified? No. A lot of people look at his contract (which isn't his fault) and don't give him a chance to play. I don't mind placing some blame on Jacque but blame other people also. I brought this up in another thread, but Aramis deserves more blame than Jones does right now as does Pierre. The pitching staff hasn't exactly been up to par either.