Transmogrified Tiger

No, its bits and peices of information that have been peiced together in a logical manner to come to a conclusion. This, in science, is called a hypothesis. In the tearms we speak in now, it is speculation. Now, no doubt it has holes. but when you put it all together, it does make sense. It makes no sense at all. Why would Cinci actively seek out and desire a mediocre outfielder as part of this trade? Why would the Cubs trade for Jody Gerut? Why would anyone sign Milton or Guzman to 4 year contracts?

Your right. Your slam was directed at a large group. Those who do not agree with you. Saying that something is the only MATURE and RESPONSIBLE way to do something, implys that what other people do is immature and irresponsible. Hense, a slam. Sorry Roast, I don't see it. He was replying to me too. I know that can be kind of a fine line, but given his pasts posts about evaluating the trade, I don't see an attack.

KRod and Miguel Cabrera say hello. Dubois wouldn't even be able to SNIFF their jock straps. For the most part, WS teams have veterans. I can pick a few rookie studs out of my butt, but Doobie is not one of them. So you have a quote in your signature about dusty sitting the youth, then an Eye rolling emoticon. Yet you say here that WS winners are veteran.... Uh...How does this make sense. I rolled my eyes at his philosophy. I'm not advocating that ALL young players play, but at some point you have to play them. If the organization feels that Dubois is not the type of player they want to build upon that's fine by me, I agree. I'd rather have higher OBP guys. Like Matt Murton. Dubois has better OBP numbers at higher levels than Murton, in addition to better power. And plays defense like a blind person. He's better suited in the AL as a DH. I really believe that. Regardless: I am not judging this deal, until I see more. It's the only mature and responsible way to judge a trade For instance if Jody, healthy, becomes our everyday LF next year, and hits .280/.350/.450/.800 with 25 HR and 80 RBI, plays solid defense this could be a very even trade. He's had those numbers before, let's just see what happens before calling hendry an idiot (not saying you're doing that Cpatt20). Like I said before, I don't understand how people can judge a deal, before either guy has even landed in the other city. It's ok to discuss it, but saying it's bad it's good, Gerut is better than/worse than Dubois, is incredibly short-sighted. That's all I'm saying. It could turn out to be the worst deal ever. or the BEST deal ever. No one knows. That's fine. I'm just pointing out that you say you prefer Murton to Dubois because of OBP, when in fact Dubois has been as good if not better at getting on base. If his defense is that big a deal to you that you think more of Murton because of it, fine. I'm just trying to figure out where you stand.

152 PA's in 52 games.

KRod and Miguel Cabrera say hello. Dubois wouldn't even be able to SNIFF their jock straps. For the most part, WS teams have veterans. I can pick a few rookie studs out of my butt, but Doobie is not one of them. So you have a quote in your signature about dusty sitting the youth, then an Eye rolling emoticon. Yet you say here that WS winners are veteran.... Uh...How does this make sense. I rolled my eyes at his philosophy. I'm not advocating that ALL young players play, but at some point you have to play them. If the organization feels that Dubois is not the type of player they want to build upon that's fine by me, I agree. I'd rather have higher OBP guys. Like Matt Murton. Dubois has better OBP numbers at higher levels than Murton, in addition to better power.

His production at every level of the minor leagues, including a 1000+ OPS at AAA? His inability to Run, Field, Throw, Hit for Average, Take a BB, Not Strikeout....... It's like he's the second coming of Hank Aaron or something if you read these boards. Okay, his less than 150 AB's in sporadic PT at the Major League level were enough for you. Fair enough. I'll try and stay with Gerut in this thread.

His production at every level of the minor leagues, including a 1000+ OPS at AAA?

All everyone's saying is that it seems odd, given that we already have Hollandsworth and Grieve, and Gerut isn't better than either. I strongly disagree. I don't think you know much about Gerut. I've seen him play some in Cleveland when I lived in the area, and I've been looking hard at his numbers since the deal was announced. How is he better than those two. Both Holla and Gerut are decent OBP, mid to upper 700 OPS outfielders that are decent defenders. How is he better than Hollandsworth.

If Cincy desired Gerut in a trade, Cleveland likely would have shipped him off to Cincy by now for Joe Randa, who they are rumored to be ga-ga for. Shapiro's no dummy though. He knows that Dubois is better for his team in the long run, and maybe short term too.

His OBP is pretty good, but his power has been going away since his good 2003. 2003: .494 SLG, .215 IsoP 2004: .405 SLG, .153 IsoP 2005: .377 SLG, .102 IsoP

Byrnes? A Gerut/Byrnes platoon would be good, yet we would probably overpay for what it would provide.

It's really hard for me to see how Gerut isn't just another incarnation of Hollandsworth.

Welcome! Who are you a convert from?

Pierre's SB % is a huge improvement over Hairston. 20 more SB's and still CS less than Hairston. That is 20 more singles or walks that were in essence doubles. Pierre has much better range than Hairston. You are right Pierre doesn't have a great arm, but he is hardly lacking range. Looking at their career numbers to say that Hairston is comparable to Pierre is a joke. Once again, nothing that you said backs up your point. First of all, it has been established that through the entirety of their careers, Pierre has been better than Hairston. I don't think anyone is disputing that. Hopefully that will be the last of the comparison of their career numbers. Now, when looking at their numbers over the past two years, their most recent trend over a good sized sample, their numbers have been pretty comparable. Is the slight difference between their numbers over their most recent trend worth the players it will take to get Pierre, especially when Hairston has been better than Pierre on the season? The difference between the two isn't worth the cost, that's the argument

FWIW, Pierre has an OPS of .746 over the last year and a half (.355/.391). Hairston has an OPS of .760 (.365/.395). Those steals aren't worth the player(s) req'd to get him or the salary Pierre will command. Pierre is a career .307 hitter with a .356 OBP and Walks more than he SO's. Hairston is a career .262 hitter with a .335 OBP with more SO's than Walks. Pierre is gold glove caliber. Hairston is a back up 2B, who is playing OF. I like Hairston too, but there really is no comparison. I think there is quite a comparison. Pierre is no gold glove CF. Where is OPS in your discussion? OPS? Sorry, but I don't think your leadoff hitters SLG % matters. If you want a homerun hitter at leadoff, fine. But most people would prefer someone who can get on base. Slugging does not equal home runs. It's the ability to get past first base on your own, which is essential to scoring runs consistently. Given Pierre's low SLG and poor SB%, that makes him less valuable as a leadoff hitter.

BP has Pierre being well below average defensively the past two years. 11 runs below average in '03, and 7 runs below average in '04.

Hollandsworth AB R H 2B 3B HR TB RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS 07/09 - 07/17 13 2 3 0 0 0 3 0 2 2 0.231 0.333 0.231 0.564 :shock: Why pick the 7/9 - 7/17 time period? If you use all of July his BA is .321, OBP is 394, SLG is .571 against RH pitching. That seems pretty good to me. Becuase that's when he turned cold. Why do you insist on tying all trends to the calendar month ?? Players don't get hot and cold on a monthly schedule, ya know. Hollandsworth AB R H 2B 3B HR TB RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS 07/01 - 07/08 22 2 8 2 0 2 16 4 2 2 0.364 0.400 0.727 1.127 07/09 - 07/17 13 2 3 0 0 0 3 0 2 2 0.231 0.333 0.231 0.564 07/01 - 07/17 35 4 11 2 0 2 19 4 4 4 0.314 0.375 0.543 0.918 Most people use months because it's the most focused, yet easy to locate/calculate split to find. Not all of us have your killer database, although we'd love it if you shared. :wink:

He has a database, not sure how he maintains it.

Neifi is bad at hitting.

Especially that other Dunn, he's brutal.

I have a new laptop, but no, I haven't had any problems.

Looked to me like he tried to come inside on Ramirez in his second AB, and Ramirez put it in the seats. Same thing with Hairston(!) but it was just foul. His fastball just wasn't hard enough to get inside.

Murton must've thought that hop was going to take the ball over Claussen.

Unlucky for Hairston.

Frese's line at AAA: .276/.344/.460/.804 in close to 100 PA's.