XZero771679666304

Please explain how he is "years removed" from his best. All of the following 2005 stats were above career averages: BA, OBP, SLG, OPS. 197 hits ranks as his 2nd best year for hits. Basically, in 2005, his HR and 3B were down, and that is the full extent of your commentary. So, he clearly isn't in a sharp decline as you note. Now, compared to all other CF in MLB, Damon ranks way up there: #1 - BA, Hits, Top 5 - 2B, OBP His power numbers won't compare against other CF that are middle-of-the-order sluggers like Jones, Griffey Jr., and Edmonds. But against other lead-off hitters, they are still stellar. Quite simply, if he hits 5+ more HR this year, and a couple more triples, he comes close to a career year, or at least his 2nd best year. Yes I pay that amount for that many years. The market doesn't have any better and Damon keeps himself in pristine condition. He should be able to play as long as someone like Lofton, and still produce. I didn't say he was in sharp decline. But, his best years were in KC, and he is years removed from them. His .304/.380/.857 last year were easily the best in the past 5 seasons, and he regressed a bit this season. When you look at his 2004 numbers in the context of his past 5 seasons, they look pretty anomalous. His hits were up in 2005, but his 53 BB were his fewest since 1997, and his 10 HR his second fewest in the last 8 years. Even if he were to replicate his 2005 numbers for the next 5 seasons (which is unlikely), .316/.366/.805 with relatively low steal totals and average defense sure isn't worth 5/50, and that's the base of what he will want. Again, Damon is a great leadoff guy, but not worth what he will be asking for at his age.

You and me both. Any scenario where the Yankees are the best option is not a good one.

I totally agree. I hate the Cards, but at least their fans show up at the ballpark every day (not just for the playoffs and the days Rocket pitches), and aren't fickle, fair weather chumps who make themselves scarce when their team isn't doing so well. Right or wrong, I guess much of my perception of other teams depends on their fans. And that being the case, I can at least respect most Cards fans. I can't say the same of most Astros fans.

Would you pay 10 mil+ for 5 years to a 32 year old player who is years removed from his best numbers? If you project his decline over the length of a 5 year contract, the price/production ratio gets pretty ugly. Sure Damon is very good as a leadoff hitter, and would be nice to have in CF, but his numbers are in fact on the decline, and even at his best he wasn't worth 10 million plus a season.

Because of the stiff competition.

The Sun-Times is reporting the Cubs have given permission to the Tigers to talk to Rothschild. Link

Yeah, I think I would too. As sacreligious as that sounds, most White Sox fans are harder to tolerate, IMO. I can't imagine if they won the series.

that and there's nothing else to do in Iowa :P Hey.........hey, hey.........watch that kind of talk :wink: Well there sure isn't much to do in your neck of the woods, I must admit. :P

that and there's nothing else to do in Iowa :P After moving to NM, I realized just how much there was to do in Iowa.

:? :?: Your original post on the matter indicated that YOU think that Cardinal fans are "different". I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect you to understand Cardinal fans reacting to McGwire, because you're not a Cardinal fan, and you've never experienced one of "your guys" accomplishing a feat like that. Maybe not, but since Mac is no longer the single season leader in HR, Sosa's acheivements are more historically significant. He had a better season in 1998 than Mac, has more career HR, is the only player in history with three 60 HR seasons, and more career RBI. In their primes, Sosa was by far the better player. So while McGwire held the record for a couple years, it is a real stretch to say we don't understand. McGwire had a 217 OPS+ in '98 Sosa had a 160 OPS+ in '98 McGwire had a career 163 OPS+ Sosa has a career 131 OPS+ McGwire had a far better year than Sosa in '98, and a far better career. But that's not the point, anyway. What I was saying is that you can't understand how it feels when "your guy" breaks a record as sacred as the one that Roger Maris held for 37 years. How did he have a far better career? Sosa has more career homers, RBI and a higher batting average. He has a lot more total bases, runs, hits, XBH and is a former multiple 30/30 man. His four year stretch from 1998 through 2001 dwarf any stretch in McGwire's career. His 2001 season is far better than any one of Mac's single seasons, and he did it with ZERO supporting cast, setting the record for production desparity over any teammate in what was one of the top 5 offensive seasons in modern history. Mac had superstars like Henderson and Canseco and productive players like Edmonds and Lankford. All Sosa ever really had was Mark Grace and an aging Sandberg for a year, yet he set the record for HR in a four year period. Mac scored 100 runs or more 3 times, Sosa did 5 times, all in a row, and the average of those 5 is 7 runs higher than the average of mac's 3. Sosa averaged 88 runs per season in his career, Mac 72. Mac averaged 102 hits per season, Sosa 144. Over their careers, Sosa and Mac averaged the same number of HR per season, and Sosa has averaged 10 more RBI per. Prior to the last couple years, Sosa had been an everyday player. McGwire was perenially injured, and from 1992-2001, Mac played 150 games only twice, less than 100 5 times, and less than 50 twice. Being healthy is a huge part of contribting to your team. Sammy averaged 144 games in his career to Mac's 117. HR/AB ratio doesn't mean much when you don't give your team AB's. All of these stats include Sosa's this year, BTW. Basically the only thing Mac did better over his career was walk and be a totally one dimensional player. Early in his career Sosa was a power and speed threat and was an outstandin fielder with a cannon arm. In his prime, Sosa sprayed balls all over the park with huge power, and ran the bases very well with great speed and commonly took extra bases. Mac has always been a HR/BB/OUT player. Mac hit long homers and put on good power displays, but as a total asset to his team over the course of his career, particularly in their primes, you simply can't make a logical argument for Mac over Sosa. So Mac broke record. If anything, the probability that it was broken while cheating should make a fan feel betrayed and bitter, if anything. Sosa was in fact a better player, whose career accomplishments (in light of Mac's record being broken shortly after he set it) are no less significant than McGwire's. And I definately feel seriously conflicted about Sosa, enough so not to unabashadly cheer my second favorite all-time player. IMO, if an Cards fan isn't conflicted also, they're not being remotely objective, fan loyalty taken into account.

No kidding. Having once lived on the south side, I don't just say no, but hell no. No way could I force myself to even consider rooting for the Sox. I just can't physically or mentally do it. Impossible.

:? :?: Your original post on the matter indicated that YOU think that Cardinal fans are "different". I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect you to understand Cardinal fans reacting to McGwire, because you're not a Cardinal fan, and you've never experienced one of "your guys" accomplishing a feat like that. Maybe not, but since Mac is no longer the single season leader in HR, Sosa's acheivements are more historically significant. He had a better season in 1998 than Mac, has more career HR, is the only player in history with three 60 HR seasons, and more career RBI. In their primes, Sosa was by far the better player. So while McGwire held the record for a couple years, it is a real stretch to say we don't understand.

Are the Cards fans booing Izzy?

I wouldn't. The guys with the 2.50 era is likely to pitch deeper into games, and keep you in more games than the other guy. Consequently, that saves your pen, and gives you a chance to win more games. Exactly. IMO, the best the pitcher can do is keep his team in the game by holding down the opponent as best he can. Now if a guy has few wins and a low ERA, that is not his fault. Conversely, if a pitcher has a 4.00 ERA and many wins, then that is a direct benefit of a good offense. Common sense tells us that a pitcher with a lower ERA is going to win more games than one with a higher ERA if they are on the same team. There is no mystical "ability to win", and pitchers with relatively high ERA's don't win games because they "know how to win". They win because of run support, pure and simple. Given equal innings, low pitchers with good peripehrals are going to give you a better chance to win games.

wins and era also. what other #'s indicate a pitcher's effectivness better? ERA, WHIP, BAA are my indicators. Wins and losses depend on the team too much. Just ask Clemens this year or Johnson last year.

Ditto.

I won't say what my wish list is, becvause it would be too far fetched. A more likely but somewhat far fetched scenario I could handle is: Sign Brian Giles Trade Patterson for the most we can get for him Sign Furcal Sign Nomar and play him @ 2B Sign Howry and pick up Williamson's option Sign Randy Winn to play CF Sign Millwood or Weaver Sign a guy like Conine or Mark Sweeney to back up 1b and the corners Then you have 1.Furcal SS 2.Murton LF 3.Lee 1B 4.Ramirez 3B 5.Giles RF 6.Garciaparra 2B 7.Winn CF 8.Barrett C Blanco Cedeno Macias (you know he will be back :( ) Conine/Sweeney Greenberg Zambrano Prior Wood Maddux Williams Weaver/Millwood Novoa Wuertz Williamson Ohman Howry Dempster

Yeah, he'll be cheap. You can DH him. Make sure you have a short LF porch. Get your 600 and retire with dignity, Sammy. As soon as you hit it, tip your cap and call it a career. Dignity went flying out the window about the same time time the cork went flying out of Sammy's bat. Come on now, we all know that was just a "batting practice" bat.......... I personally believe it was a practice bat. I also believe Sam juiced. Others can believe he didn't, along with believing Oswald acted alone, O.J. is innocent, and other such nonsense (IMO). Sometimes common sense overides an abscence of proof, when there is enough circumstantial evidence. If I say I believe Sosa is innocent, then I have to say the same of players like Bonds, Boone, McGwire, etc., and I can't honestly do that. And I loved (and still do) Sammy Sosa. I have just reconciled with his probable cheating. why let it bother you, with each passing week it seems someone else was doing. Sammy wasn't the only one. I would like to see him have one more good year. It doesn't bother me that much. I loved Sammy as much as anyone, but some people get way too defensive at the insinuation that he was on steroids. I wish him the best, but I have no delusions of his innocence. He may be innocent, but I doubt it. And it is a legitimate issue that pertains to his future.

Yeah, he'll be cheap. You can DH him. Make sure you have a short LF porch. Get your 600 and retire with dignity, Sammy. As soon as you hit it, tip your cap and call it a career. Dignity went flying out the window about the same time time the cork went flying out of Sammy's bat. Come on now, we all know that was just a "batting practice" bat.......... I personally believe it was a practice bat. I also believe Sam juiced. Others can believe he didn't, along with believing Oswald acted alone, O.J. is innocent, and other such nonsense (IMO). Sometimes common sense overides an abscence of proof, when there is enough circumstantial evidence. If I say I believe Sosa is innocent, then I have to say the same of players like Bonds, Boone, McGwire, etc., and I can't honestly do that. And I loved (and still do) Sammy Sosa. I have just reconciled with his probable cheating.

Then why do Cubs fans cheer when Derrek Lee comes to bat, and not when Pujols comes to bat? Why do they cheer when Prior strikes someone out, but not when Carpenter strikes someone out? Are you all a bunch of hypocrites? Notice I said chide Sosa for being a cheat. And that's frankly my point. I cheer Cubs because they are Cubs and boo others because they play for the other team. On the other hand, I wouldn't call another player on another team a cheat for doing something that I'd turn a blind eye to. For example, to call Sosa a cheater, you must admit that McGwire is too. If you cheer McGwire because he's a Cardinal, fine with me. Just don't pretend he's any better of a person than Sosa, Bonds, or Palmeiro. He's not. I agree with you, but McGwire is a good person, and I think Bonds is a egomaniacal SOB. Having said that, it should have nothing to do with how you evaluate their cheating, and free passes for cheating shouldn't be given out because of civic good deeds.

Then why do Cubs fans cheer when Derrek Lee comes to bat, and not when Pujols comes to bat? Why do they cheer when Prior strikes someone out, but not when Carpenter strikes someone out? Are you all a bunch of hypocrites? Because this isn't about Lee, Pujols, Carp or Prior. This is about two very high profile players who are under varying degrees of scrutiny with regard to possible (if not highly probable) cheating. And you are implying McGwire should get a free pass from fans because of his charitable deeds and "team loyalty", and Sosa shouldn't because he is a "jerk". That is BS. This isn't about today's players or typical fan loyalty. This is about not wearing rose colored glasses and holding cheaters accountable, regardless of fan affliliation. Trying to separate McGwire from Sosa, Palmeiro etc. because of positive things he said and for STL is unabashadly naieve and homersitic. Personally, I was as big a Sosa fan as anyone. I have signed baseballs, cards, jersey's, posters, pennants etc. And if I there was a ceremony at Wrigley involving Sosa, I would not cheer him. I wouldn't boo him because I don't feel juicing is worth spewing venom over (because I think so many did), but I wouldn't cheer. And he has done a lot less to incriminate himself than Mac has. I don't want to believe Sosa juiced, but deep down I feel he must have, and I can deal with that. I think the point of this thread is that many Cards fans can't deal with Mac's cheating and cheered under the guise of saluting his "character". It's like they would rather keep this nice warm fuzzy facade separating STL from the rest of the baseball world than deal with the truth, and it's pathetic.

Wow, I can't remember a more decisive shift in momentum in a game.

Neifi is 3rd in the NL in GIDP.

Murton, but you must get a proven bat in RF.

I believe the Cubs hold a 2 mil option on Williamson. Some notable non-closer relievers on the market are Felix Rodriguez, Guillermo Mota, Tim Worrell, Mike Timlin, Dotel (though he's injured), and Rudy Seanez, to name a few.