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I'm just catching it on ESPN Gamecast, but this game looks U-G-L-Y.

"There's a sucker born every minute" - P.T. Barnum Agree, all those people who think "the steroid era" is encompassed in the mid 90's to 2005-ish are clearly suckers. I'd be curious to see the Voice of Reason explain how I'm being a "sucker." I fully recognize that PED use did and does exist in baseball. At the same time I recognize that people didn't really have a problem with "steroid baseball" at the time of its peak: in fact, it was the opposite and it arguably brought the game back from the brink. I also recognize that the "steroid era" extends well beyond the relatively small window of time and small group of players that those who decry it the most want to relegate it to. Talk about revisionist history. No one knew the extent of steroid use that was going on. In fact, when Canseco's book came out he was criticized by most for exagerating. "Back from the brink," LOL. Baseball survived for a long time without steroids and currently has record attendance with the HR #'s way because of drug testing and much less steroid use. While enriching the cheaters, steroids made a mockery of the game and some of its long held records. Jesus, how naive. Are you going to play the same card when it comes out that many modern day record setter in the NFL were thoroughly juiced? Do you really think that MLB players have stopped using PEDs? Do you actually think that steroid use was only confined to a 10 year period? Or that players in the past wouldn't pounced on them if they had been available then? That there won't be the next cheat no one has caught on to yet, just the way steroids were? Do you really think that MLB and the players would respond to Canseco by agreeing completely? Do you believe Selig and Co. had no idea what was going on? Or that is is unthinkable that they might have allowed it to continued because they saw how much it was helping the sport? Do you not recognize that while MLB has had difficulties before the mid nineties, it never had to deal with such huge competition from other sports for public interest? It easier to survive tough times when you are the national pastime. That hasn't really been true for a couple decades, at least. And you're calling us suckers?

The Voice of Reason is just trying to instigate. If he's not, he is simply a moron. Recognizing the use of PEDs then and now is not being suckered. Realizing that and how it helped the game is being pragmatic. Many of us saw it then, much the way we see it in the NFL now. In both cases, is has proven and continues to prove to be a boon to the respective sports. Baseball was in dire straits in the mid nineties. Interest was waning, and revenues were dropping. Without Sosa, the Cubs would not have a $140M dollar payroll today. Baseball in general would not be enjoying the prosperity it is. There would almost certainly be less talent coming into the game. It may have been done out of self interest, but guys like McGwire and Sosa really may have saved the sport. I haven't been suckered. Nuts&Gum hasn't been suckered. J.R. hasn't been suckered. The only true suckers here are the ones who have long lived under the illusion that sport is pure, heroes never cheat, and can't reconcile with the fact that sometimes a little integrity has to be sacrificed for the greater good.

For pitchers that have the stuff and the command to do so, pounding the zone is a great thing to do. For pitchers that either don't have the movement, deception or velocity, it's a bad idea unless you can consistently put it on the edge of the zone each time. Maddux is one of the all time greats because he had movement, deception, velocity (when younger) and incredible command. Not many pitchers have these things, which is why they cannot pound the zone the same way. I understand that, but what is frustrating is when plus stuff guys don't pound the zone. We've had our share of that, and I'm willing to bet that it has much to do with no one tempering their desire to strike batters out instead of economize. You can chalk some of that up to simple command issues, but many times you see guys like Z trying to K guys instead of just getting them out.

I agree to a point, but when such a discussion totally hijacks a thread (as tends to happen), it would be nice to be able to take it elsewhere.

How about a forum dedicated to issues that have no real hope of resolution or consensus? Things like chemistry, clutch ability, and the validity of defensive metrics are constantly mucking up other discussions, and aren't going away anytime soon. Or at least dedicated threads to keep this chaff from cropping up all over the place.

Clearly the good of the sport (and make no mistake, despite the recent hullabaloo, the steroid era has been a net positive for baseball) should take a back seat to the sensibilities of sanctimonious and sensationalist douchebags. J.R. is dead on with his assessment.

Knowing Maddux, my feeling is that "going deeper into games" is probably going to be addressed as an economy of pitches issue rather than a stamina issue. This is a problem many Cubs pitchers have had.

Yeah, the Sosa hate isn't related to PED's, at least not to a significant degree. Sosa was a bit of an ass, but there was an effort to smear him at the end. Even if there hadn't been it's stupid. The guy was pretty much the only reason to tune into or attend a Cubs game for years, much the same as McGwire was for the Cardinals. I have no ill will for Sammy Sosa at all. The opposite, in fact.

This.

No, it's actually ridiculous. Ban them from baseball? If you ban McGwire, you'd have to ban hundreds of others. Good point. Because baseball has never banned anyone for cheating or breaking the law. That's silly. How are you going to ban all the steroid users? Are you going to make the lists public? And those weren't even comprehensive tests. Are you going mass ban? Or are you just going to pick out the prominent ones? Can you imagine the circus? And that's not even touching the fact that when steroid use was at it's height, it wasn't even illegal in the sport. This isn't Joe Jackson or Pete Rose here. It's not nearly that simple.

You are assuming it's jealousy, I don't know why. Sammy was his teammate, it makes sense that he makes a comment about a person he knew and shenanigans he would have been able to know about, rather than taking shots at random guys in the league. Sammy is a disgraced former player who isn't involved in the game anymore, why would Grace be jealous of him? He made a ton of money, had a ton of adoring fans, is still in the game and beloved by many. I don't know, obviously. But the animosity goes back to their time as teammates. I thought it was pretty well known that Grace disliked him even then, and that the dislike was tied to the attention Sosa was getting. I'm making an assumption, but I feel pretty safe in it. But that doesn't prove jealousy. Even if that is exactly what was going on, why couldn't he have just disliked how popular Sammy was on the outside while being a cheating jerk on the inside? If he disliked a popular player who wasn't been hounded by roids scandals and wasn't a complete jerk to teammates, you'd have a case, but calling this a simply case of jealousy is a big stretch with what we know of Sammy and what we think we know of Sammy It's really easy to understand why a teammate wouldn't like him. It's my opinion. But when you haven't had to deal with the guy in a decade, there's not a lot of reason to keep harping on it, or even give a crap any more.

No, it's actually ridiculous. Ban them from baseball? If you ban McGwire, you'd have to ban hundreds of others.

You are assuming it's jealousy, I don't know why. Sammy was his teammate, it makes sense that he makes a comment about a person he knew and shenanigans he would have been able to know about, rather than taking shots at random guys in the league. Sammy is a disgraced former player who isn't involved in the game anymore, why would Grace be jealous of him? He made a ton of money, had a ton of adoring fans, is still in the game and beloved by many. I don't know, obviously. But the animosity goes back to their time as teammates. I thought it was pretty well known that Grace disliked him even then, and that the dislike was tied to the attention Sosa was getting. I'm making an assumption, but I feel pretty safe in it.

Really? Because if Sammy hadn't been his teammate and he wasn't jealous of him, he wouldn't be doing it. It's not as if Grace is some sort of crusader in the steroids issue. He's picking on Sammy more simply because he was annoyed and jealous of the attention he got. If Sammy had been on another team, Grace probably wouldn't say anything about him at all. It's Grace being petty. First off, I don't even know what the big deal is, how often does he talk about Sammy? I can't remember the last time I heard him mention it. However, Sammy was a douche and a likely cheater, and if Grace pokes fun at him from time to time, how is that petty? Because when you take a shot at someone out of jealousy/envy (as opposed to genuinely being offended by their unscrupulousness), you're being petty. I'm not saying Sosa doesn't deserve some derision, I'm questioning Grace's motivations for pointing it out whenever the opportunity arises, since he usually doesn't have much to say about any of the other notorious juicers/douches. And it's not like Grace is some sort of upright individual, he's a pretty big ass in his own right. And he mentions Sammy sometimes, but more often you'll hear him take "I'm not going to name any names, but" type jabs clearly about Sosa.

Really? Because if Sammy hadn't been his teammate and he wasn't jealous of him, he wouldn't be doing it. It's not as if Grace is some sort of crusader in the steroids issue. He's picking on Sammy more simply because he was annoyed and jealous of the attention he got. If Sammy had been on another team, Grace probably wouldn't say anything about him at all. It's Grace being petty.

this Yeah, other than his not so subtle jealousy of Sammy, he's pretty much awesome. God forbid clean players be jealous of steroid users who put up ridiculous numbers because they cheated. What an ass that Mark Grace is. And yet you don't hear teammates of known juicers making snide comments publicly on a regular basis like Grace does. It's petty, especially since the truth is so widely assumed anyway.

Frank Thomas was a freak of nature. And I'm not denying Mac put on quite a bit of mass, but not an unnatural amount like some others. He was big guy with a frame that you could project a lot of muscle growth for under normal circumstances. And athletes tend to get bigger over time anyway. I'm just saying he isn't one of those guys where you look at a picture of him at 25 and then 35 and think, "wow, wtf, how the hell did that happen?" (Sammy, Barry, Bret Boone, etc.). Was a significant amount due to the roids? Sure. But not much more than he could have put on anyway.

McGwire was always a tank. Picking on his size as an indicator is barking up the wrong tree. It's not like he underwent a Bonds/Sosa type transformation.

I don't know, if Mac used for 9 years, and, say, 5-10 flyouts per season became homers because of that extra strength, it seems reasonable. I threw 100 out there to be liberal. Personally, I think 50-60 is probably more likely. Mac had a ton of power to begin with. Most of his homers were cannon shots anyway.

McGwire was better than Kingman, and would have been regardless. He had plate discipline and great raw power from the beginning. McGwire had a better season as a rookie than Kingman ever had in his career. Mac vs. Kong is not a good comparison, but it is reasonable to think he may have hit a hundred less homers over the course of his career and been more on the periphery of HOF discussion if not for the roids. Steroids didn't make Sammy a .300 hitter (at least solely). They helped him hit 60 homers, but there was also a clear shift in his approach that helped a lot. Roids don't help you make contact or be patient at the plate. They help you hit the ball harder and farther. There plenty of physical specimens in the the steroid era who still stank out loud. All that said, Mac's confession was a joke. Again, I don't particularly care that he used, but coming with a litany of rationalizations, excuses and half truths just makes he and the era look even more sketchy, and insults the intelligence of everyone who hears it.

this Yeah, other than his not so subtle jealousy of Sammy, he's pretty much awesome. How? He's a terrible broadcaster, and a fratboy douchebag. He amuses me, what can I say. Not in an intellectual way by any means, but he does. I wouldn't want him in the Cubs booth, but I do enjoy some of his...anecdotes (even if the humor is often unintentionally at his own expense). If I listened to him more, it might not be the case, but whatever. There are plenty of douches around the game that manage to never be funny, and are worse broadcasters. Plus the fact that he was one of my favorite players growing up probably colors my opinion a bit.

this Yeah, other than his not so subtle jealousy of Sammy, he's pretty much awesome.

I don't care about the approval of Cub fans. I've seen plenty of Cardinals fans act the same way. I just don't get it. Sammy got busted and nobody really cared. It just confirmed what we already knew, just like McGwire. I just don't get how admitting to using for so long makes him a coward. I don't think Mac is a coward, perhaps just a bit self-deluded. I think he actually believes he could have hit 70 homers without help. It's not true, but I don't think he is lying. I think a lot of people who don't really care that he (or others) used just want to see someone really just own it, something like "Yeah, I used. I thought it would boost my performance, and it did. I'm sorry it went down this way, but what's done is done." Personally, I would respect that a lot more than the stuff we have heard. I'm not upset about it one way or the other, but it would be refreshing to see an admission that wasn't comprised of half-truths, rationalizations and cop outs ("I wish I had never played in the steroid era" is among the biggest I have heard yet). I guess the rationale is that if you don't want to talk about it, don't. But if you're going to make a public spectacle of an admission, don't insult people with obvious BS. It just adds to the fiasco by making yourself look like the dishonest shenaniganizer the media is trying to paint you as already.

This is a big part of my problem. You didn't have to be a rocket scientist to see something was off when you had 3 guys blow up the single season HR record in the space of four years with numerous other marginal power hitters in the 40's and 50's. But we were are enjoying the crap out of it, and I don't feel the least bit guilty about that. But then you have these sanctimonious douches in the media prattling on about how we were fooled and betrayed by these conniving cheats. After they, the ones who are supposedly paid to explore all sides of the issues, carried on like doe eyed school girls while it was all going on. Seriously, STFU.