Soul

I think firing Baker is something that needs to be done. But let's not kid ourselves. Is firing Dusty going to make CPatt a decent hitter? Will it make Woody learn how to pitch? Will it turn the clock back on Maddux? Will it give Hairston an arm? Heal Lee's shoulder? Make Nomar tough? Turn Dubois into a solid outfielder? I don't think so. This whole thing is such a mess. Firing Dusty is the beginning of the solution----not the end.

*turns on rant detector* No rant detected. Just a fan voicing real concerns over an obviously listless ballclub.

Agreed, is being "negative" actually being a realist? 2003 wasn't too long ago. Right now we're so far from that level of baseball it's truly unbelievable. Let the record show: it took exactly a season and a half to go from within one game of the World Series to just another bad ballclub.

Why does everyone get hurt except Dusty Baker?

Who was the pitching coach we had in '98? He did a fine job with not much talent---even coaxing a 50-save season out of Rod Beck when everyone on the planet had written him off. Reagan? Phil Reagan? 10 times the pitching coach Rothschild is. We oughtta dig him up----he could out-coach Rothschild from 6 feet under. Anyone could.

I hear you, but with this organization's track record (or lack thereof) for producing position-player talent in the minors, we might wanna gut our minor league staffs and re-up with some real baseball teachers. Then keep our best players down for a couple years to learn how to play the game right. That might help avoid more Corey Patterson type failures.

I have always jumped on people who make those "season over" remarks, but we're nearing that point. Whoa. Now I know it's getting bad. I was going to give it until a couple weeks after the break before giving up completely.

Who is making excuses? Hendry put together a second rate team, Baker manages likes a second rate coach, and the team is players are playing like a second rate team. Why does everybody have to divide it up into black and white. It's not players vs manager, or manager vs front office. The entire organization has failed. Most of the players, most of the coaching staff and most of the front office personel have failed to do their job, that's why the team isn't as good as it should and could be. Again, not an excuse, but don't forget the injuries Many of which could have been predicted. Kerry Wood hurt? Surprise. Nomar hurt? Shocking. Fox blowing out his arm? Every team has big time players get hurt. When you build a fragile team, with enormous weaknesses, the injuries will happen and your weaknesses will be exposed. I totally agree. Not using that as an excuse, and injuries do happen, but they have also contributed to the worse than expected record. It has just been a convergence of many different things that have formed the "Perfect Storm" Not only could they have been predicted---many of us actually did predict the injuries to Wood, Garciaparra, Prior. It didn't take a great deal of insight to figure out if guys like Prior & Wood can't even make it through a training camp (in Prior's case, couldn't even make it *TO* training camp) without suffering injury that something will likely sideline them once again. In Woody's case 2004 he made it to what? Mid-May before injury? I forget-----it's an ability that serves you well when you've been a fan of this franchise for more than 3 decades. And Garciaparra is made of fine China. Everyone knows that. I was SHOCKED at that signing. It was terrible. Guess what? Nomar will struggle through whatever season he has left in '05 and *suprise*---he'll lose a significant portion of '06 to injury as well. Wow, I must be psychic. :roll: Even with all our starters, this still isn't a playoff team anyway. The outfield is junk, and the bullpen is a 3-run jack waiting to happen. Again--we said it in February. The fact that it's happening in July was forseen by lowly fans. Why is Cubs management being paid a King's ransom when they can't see it? Or maybe they CAN see it-----but tickets sell out in February so why bother going through the pain and effort of putting together a team that holds together through October? Seems like that's the way of things around here, even if it isn't true. If I'm just being negative, then I apologize to everyone. But this is a movie I've seen 30 times. Saw the movie, rented the DVD, bought the T-Shirt. And so has everyone else. Hope springs eternal I guess.

To me, those are nice little side stories, but if the team doesn't win something (even a Wild Card), it's still a miserable year. I especially agree with 4,6, & 7 though----those have been good stories this year.

Hehe. Yeah---the Nationals get better pitching though, and they score more timely runs. Especially late. #of runs is only part of the picture. Take a one-game season: If I lose 11-8 trying to come back from an 11-0 deficit, and my rival wins 2-1 in a close game won on a single in the 12th inning, my rival goes to the playoffs despite my scoring 300% more runs :) They have better pitching, and they score more timely runs---they're the better team even though almost all the offensive numbers show otherwise. This Cubbie team (like many others) is alot like the team that lost 11-8. We struggle because frankly we suck when it counts, then pad our numbers when it doesn't. That's why I seldom engage in the stats wars that frequently rage on these forums. Stats are only part of the picture, and they can easily be arranged and reported in whatever way suits a particular argument. But ask yourself this in November: who won the World Series? That can't be slanted in any way whatsoever---and hence it is the only thing that matters.

Because if we're comparing Len to Chip, there is no comparison to speak of. I think someone in this thread was talking about how Stoney had these huge balls and wasn't afraid to criticize any player (probably not in those words), while Len and Bob do nothing but tow the company line and never criticze players. Yeah, and I'm with you there. Len & Bob do criticize the players when they deserve it. And that's good. They do it with more tact than Stone----AFTER he was called out by some of the players. Certainly.

First we were hitting but not pitching. Now we're pitching but not hitting. It's like being tied to a see-saw with a hyperactive 9-year-old. Someone balance the act---Good LORD.

Yeah, at first it was pathetic but you cant blame the team for the loss though. Really? Was some other team out there wearing Cub uniforms?

Dusty Baker LIVED the game too. Better not question his baseball acumen then. Just because someone played baseball doesn't mean they're more knowledgable about the sport. You can't tell me that John Kruk knows more about the game then say, Bill James. Stone was a fine color man. But I can't say I enjoy Cubs broadcast less because he's gone. Kasper and Brenly do a fine job, and frankly I don't miss Stone all that much. Though I admit a Stone/Kasper booth has interesting possibilities. Yeah, but Dusty's a buffoon. Stone's got a sharp mind & quick wits, plus he lived baseball on the field for many, many years. You're missing the point--Stone is a rare player with alot of intelligence. Len doesn't even do the same job Stone did, so frankly I'm at a loss why you even thought there was value in drawing a comparison between the two.

Agreed - we're .500 when 2 of our 3 best starters have been out for the majority of the first half, when our shortstop has been injured for the entire season, when our 2nd basemen spent a large part of the first half on the DL, when we've had two horrific OBP guys batting in front of the MVLee, and when our bullpen was still being formed. We still have the potential to make a run in the second half. Other clubs *are* making their run. We have the "potential" to. That usually means October golf plans.

If you mean Len spends more time with his nose in a stats book than Stone, then I agree. Stone doesn't have to---he actually LIVED the game. If you are suggesting that a talking head like Kasper just plain knows more about the game than Stone, then.........not much else to say other than you are wrong. I think less of Brenly because he doesn't provide nearly the insight into a ballgame that Stone does. I never said I thought less of him because he "doesn't make things personal". Au contraire. He simply doesn't do the quality job in the booth that Stone did for 20 years. And you know what? Bob would be the *first* person to tell you that. He doesn't need to be to do the job. Stone is and will remain a Chicago legend. Brenly is not. And that's really the bottom line. Stone didn't start things last year. He did his job, period. And when the players couldn't handle the NON-personal criticisms of their play, THEY MADE IT PERSONAL IN THE MEDIA. Of course Stone responded. He had to. His very fibre as a person was called out by alot of players who by the way got the axe because the CUBS agreed with Stone.

What fans do? I'd like to hear how booing a player for taking what should be ball 4 is what good fans do. It's what some fans do when they perceive a player isn't giving 100%. They paid their cash for seats, they're entitled to boo any time they want. Maybe some fans are booing stupidly. But that's not what you said. You said "booing is terrible." That's not selective. That's painting with a broad brush. I'd like to hear how you come to the conclusion that all booing is terrible. But they're booing Corey's performance, not that he's not trying 100%. Because it would be even more stupid if they were booing him for that, since he's one of the hardest workers on the team. I have no problem booing someone who's not trying. I think we should probably drop the subject since the game started, but I want the irony noted that a guy with Stephen A. Smith as his avatar doesn't like booing. :) LOL. Alright--the subject is dropped. I need to get some stuff done anyway :) Go Cubs.

OK. Then let's give everyone a current events test as they come through the turnstyles at Wrigley. You don't know the latest stats? Out-ski!!! Some fans are stupid. So what. You wanna be successful in the big leagues? Learn to overcome it. That's the whole point here. We're covering for CPatt's fragile psyche (it seems). If it needs covering (which I'm not sure of yet), then maybe he's not our guy.

What's the point? Corey knows he's not doing well, he's obviously trying hard to break out of it. Booing him only hurts him, doesn't help him improve, and doesn't help his trade value if you want to get rid of him. You're not always going to get David Aardsma and Jerome Williams for a slumping player you boo out of town. And it's selective booing, where the heck is the booing for Neifi and others who have struggled at times just as badly as Corey. Huh? We just got Williams for Hawkins who was booed out of town! You're suggesting that GMs listen to the booes and use it as an evaluation tool. Surely you aren't serious. I'm saying booing a guy out of town will not always net us good trades. I'm saying you're decreasing his trade value as you continue to boo him. Heck, look at what happened yesterday. Everyone booed him for striking out looking at what most (besides the ump) thought was ball 4. Corey made a game-saving double play on defense, came up in his next AB, got a standing-o, struck out looking on a questionable pitch and was booed. This is no environment for Corey to break out of his slump, all the while, his trade value continues to go down. This is Corey Patterson we're talking about here, not Todd Hundley. Sometimes, the fans boo a guy out of town and the Cubs get a wonderful trade. Other times, the Cubs have to pay $17M to have him leave. And get Jerry Hairston, Mike Fontenot and a guy who retired. I'm not sure if you realize it, but you basically just said Corey Patterson is too fragile mentally to be a solid starter in this league. And isn't that the point? Can he handle the pressure or not? Because if he can't, then he can't be our starting center fielder.

What fans do? I'd like to hear how booing a player for taking what should be ball 4 is what good fans do. It's what some fans do when they perceive a player isn't giving 100%. They paid their cash for seats, they're entitled to boo any time they want. Maybe some fans are booing stupidly. But that's not what you said. You said "booing is terrible." That's not selective. That's painting with a broad brush. I'd like to hear how you come to the conclusion that all booing is terrible.

What's the point? Corey knows he's not doing well, he's obviously trying hard to break out of it. Booing him only hurts him, doesn't help him improve, and doesn't help his trade value if you want to get rid of him. You're not always going to get David Aardsma and Jerome Williams for a slumping player you boo out of town. And it's selective booing, where the heck is the booing for Neifi and others who have struggled at times just as badly as Corey. Huh? We just got Williams for Hawkins who was booed out of town! You're suggesting that GMs listen to the booes and use it as an evaluation tool. Surely you aren't serious.

yeah but the boo birds were really going to be on him after that pop up on the 2-0 count with two guys on. And that is why booing is terrible. He could have easily been on base 4 times on Friday if Welke got some glasses and yet he's booed for taking pitches out of the zone in 3-2 counts. If you're want an player to improve, don't hate him when he does it. I love how a select percentage of fans can dictate what happens. Especially since based on my experiences at Wrigley, most of them are drunk and not paying much attention to the game. They're just waiting for a chance to boo him. I don't boo any of our players unless I feel they aren't trying. I have played enough baseball to know how freaking hard it is to do what they are doing at that level. Dusty however, is open field. Yeah, but "booing is terrible"??? What's that supposed to mean? Booing is booing. That's like saying Mt. Everest is terrible. No it's not. It just exists. Booing isn't terrible. It's just what fans do. Unless we're saying the booing is *causing* Patterson to stink. In which case he's got bigger problems than the fans anyway.

Whatever the single-season record is, I'm sure Sosa is near the top. Welcome D. Lee to the top 10 after this season. Sosa probably appears 3 or 4 times in the top 10 all by himself.

Len may make fewer mistakes than Chip, but he still has his moments. Like calling "....makes the final out to end the inning" when the Cubs are hitting in a road game----and throwing false stats out there to support the erroneous notion that Hawkins was "average" in one-run games (never mind the fact that average might be fine for the Brewers, but not for a club that has playoff aspirations). Alot of folks have said they appreciate that Len appears to have baseball knowledge. That's not really all that true. He has MORE baseball knowledge than Chip, who is basically the Michael Waltrip of baseball (I don't know anything about cars, I just drive 'em). So he seems to us to have baseball knowledge when in reality his knowledge is pretty average. I still liked Chip's emotion better---yes, even if it's forced it's still better than Len's generic, school-taught cookie-cutter approach. Brenly will just never touch the sky 10 miles below Stoney......PERIOD. He doesn't annoy me, but that's only because it takes alot for a color guy to annoy me. I just tune him out. The Cubs were just plain wrong as hell to turn a cold shoulder on Stoney. The guy did the exact same thing he did for 20 years, and suddenly it became unacceptable for no reason whatsoever. The Cubs should be ashamed. And where has it gotten us? Stoney's gone, the Cubs still stink, and we're heading for another mediocre/losing season. Plus, now the games are boring to watch. Oh yes, Stone was the problem :roll:

Obviously you havent been a Cub fan long. I am 3rd generation. After the first generation or so, all hope disappears. The 2nd generation brings bitter disappointment and disillusionment. With the 3rd generation comes comedy, acceptance, and understanding the art form. It isnt IF the Cubs will fail so much, as how they will do it. They always amaze and break new ground in this area. Like watching Opera. Great singing and fine music, but the really good part is in the intangible area. Now dont get me wrong, I enjoy a good Cubs victory just like everyone else. I just try to avoid the suicidal lows associated with any kind of hope whatsoever. The "safe" money on the Cubs will always follow Murphy's Law. We were doomed when the first expert picked us to win it all this year. Pessimistic? Perhaps, but Realistic. Life is pain; anyone who tells you different is trying to sell you something. I guess we're just different. As soon as I'm half as negative as you, and do nothing but derive pain from the Cubs, I'll stop being a fan. I don't understand why anyone would want to follow the team if it wasn't fun. I hear ya and am in agreeance with ya, Tree. I really don't know how some of the more negative posters here survive and how they can take rooting for the Cubs if it makes them so negative, etc. You will learn to understand the first time you realize you want to root for another team and discover you can't. That's when the little light will go on above your head: being a Cub fan may have been a choice long ago, but now it's a death-grip, love-hate, addiction that can never be cured.