Soul

He's not been determined to be an "effective starter" based on 2 starts. what? I'm determining him to be effective based on his talent + his 3 starts this year + a body of minor league work. And it doesn't really matter if he's effective or not, his replacement is probably going to be worse than he would have been in the same situation. His ERA was over 10 in the minors this year. What on earth are you talking about? He's had 2 good starts this year, last year he was terrible. You seem to want to put him on the level of a Lilly or a Marquis. He's a young arm who recently had a couple good starts. Hopefully it turns into more.[/quote] No one is saying Guzman is dominant or equal to Lilly/Marquis/Glavine. [/b] Those are effective starters. What is Guzman then? He's a young guy who is still getting himself together, far from a sure thing as a starter. So let's quit pretending Lou's throwing sure-fire starter stats out of the lineup, alright?

hahahaha, is this for real? At least two different posters, maybe three came up with roles for the pen to be effective without the madness of demoting Guzman. Hilarious. All of them are ridiculous, and would quite simply result in more burnout on the good arms we do have. Either that, or they wouldn't result in much change at all. You can't have it both ways. You either lean on Wuertz, Ohman, and Dempster more and risk burning them out quicker, or you pitch Eyre and Howry and give up leads. Lou is making a move that provides a new resource in the pen. I don't like it, but these other ideas are woefully inadequate. You can't carry deadweight in your pen, TT. That's just a fact. Every pen has guys who aren't very good. For us that's Eyre. He can pitch when there's blowouts or our starter gets rocked. Cotts, Howry, and Marmol are plenty adequate for short/middle relief, Cotts has been effective, Howry is better than his results this year, and Marmol has great stuff. Ohman's around to get out a LH too, giving you two options from either side. Then you have the straight forward setup-closer situation with Wuertz and Dempster. You've got it in your mind that Howry is an abomination beyond saving and that any solution to the pen that keeps him and Eyre in it will result in burnout. That's wrong. And you're ignoring Howry's poor performance this year and declaring Marmol to be a major-league competent reliever with little or no basis for that assertion.

hahahaha, is this for real? At least two different posters, maybe three came up with roles for the pen to be effective without the madness of demoting Guzman. Hilarious. All of them are ridiculous, and would quite simply result in more burnout on the good arms we do have. Either that, or they wouldn't result in much change at all. You can't have it both ways. You either lean on Wuertz, Ohman, and Dempster more and risk burning them out quicker, or you pitch Eyre and Howry and give up leads. Lou is making a move that provides a new resource in the pen. I don't like it, but these other ideas are woefully inadequate. You can't carry deadweight in your pen, TT. That's just a fact. so how is moving guzman to the pen a good move? just because other moves are bad doesn't mean you make a different bad move. Let's get back to the original point. How is calling Lou stupid a valid assertion when you don't have a better solution?

He's not been determined to be an "effective starter" based on 2 starts. what? I'm determining him to be effective based on his talent + his 3 starts this year + a body of minor league work. And it doesn't really matter if he's effective or not, his replacement is probably going to be worse than he would have been in the same situation. His ERA was over 10 in the minors this year. What on earth are you talking about? He's had 2 good starts this year, last year he was terrible. You seem to want to put him on the level of a Lilly or a Marquis. He's a young arm who recently had a couple good starts. Hopefully it turns into more.

hahahaha, is this for real? At least two different posters, maybe three came up with roles for the pen to be effective without the madness of demoting Guzman. Hilarious. All of them are ridiculous, and would quite simply result in more burnout on the good arms we do have. Either that, or they wouldn't result in much change at all. You can't have it both ways. You either lean on Wuertz, Ohman, and Dempster more and risk burning them out quicker, or you pitch Eyre and Howry and give up leads. Lou is making a move that provides a new resource in the pen. I don't like it, but these other ideas are woefully inadequate. You can't carry deadweight in your pen, TT. That's just a fact.

He's not been determined to be an "effective starter" based on 2 starts.

Huh? that's what you're advocating. you're saying he shouldn't be content with what he has -- which is fine -- so he should make a move. he doesn't have much he can do. moving guzman is not the right idea. pressure hendry to make a move or something, but don't move an effective starter to the bullpen. it's just a bad idea. Guzman has had 2 good starts, it's ridiculous to talk about him like he's Tom Glavine or something. Your 'solution' of changing usage patterns isn't likely to be any more effective, and nowhere has Lou said this would be a permanent move. You said it's change just for the sake of change. I say you're complaining just to complain. fine. keep using straw man arguments. attack me instead of attacking the point. keep up the great work. Oh please. I never came close to attacking you. The problem here is that several people on this thread genuinely think they'd be a better manager than Lou Piniella, yet can't come up with a better way to handle this situation than Lou is trying. Sorry, but I'll call that out every single time.

Huh? that's what you're advocating. you're saying he shouldn't be content with what he has -- which is fine -- so he should make a move. he doesn't have much he can do. moving guzman is not the right idea. pressure hendry to make a move or something, but don't move an effective starter to the bullpen. it's just a bad idea. Guzman has had 2 good starts, it's ridiculous to talk about him like he's Tom Glavine or something. Your 'solution' of changing usage patterns isn't likely to be any more effective, and nowhere has Lou said this would be a permanent move. You said it's change just for the sake of change. I say you're complaining just to complain.

You're way overstating this. It's just a reallocation of the roles in the pen. Howry and (especially) Eyre will throw less innings, but no one's suggesting banishing them until there's a 10 run difference before letting them on the field. The risk of overuse is the same as it would be if Howry/Eyre were pitching well. Alright, then what you're talking about isn't really going to net much of a difference. Howry & Eyre will still be pitched.....will still suck, still blow leads for us. Unless they suddenly see the light, Lou will have to pull them to save leads, resulting in more innings for our current BP pitchers, which = more burnout. Net result, probably much the same. I don't like moving Guzman to the pen either. I'm not sure any of these other options are all that great. If we could make a trade I'm sure Hendry would. Howry (as you saw today) is not getting any better. Same with Erye. Sure this sucks, but what else can we do? I'll tell you what I *won't* do. Call Lou an idiot or stupid for attempting to deal with a very difficult situation, when there really aren't any other good options.

I wonder if Alex had a heads up about this...perhaps why he's seeking a trade. I forget it it was Lawrence Holmes or Zack Zademan that was saying how good Hester looked out there catching passes, but admitted it will be different when there's contact. I still prefer Lovie's style of simply giving the starting job to the high performers, at least in many cases. We've been on the other side of this coin. The Dick Jauron / Dave Waanstedt style of "you're the veteran, you get the job unless you're injured" is B.S. and quite simply does not work very often. If Alex Brown can't handle it, then he should play better. He's a guy who has never really realized his full potential IMHO anyway. Mark Anderson flat out played better than Alex last year. Agreed, but then how do you explain Alex Brown behind Ogunleye. I thought Wale was in for a big year up until the Seattle game. He got hurt and didn't do anything the rest of the year. Alex was better against the run, had more sacks, forced fumbles, had 2 picks. Wait. What do you mean? Alex & Wale don't play the same position. Alex is working out as a backup on both sides. He's still a primary on the other side, where he is being outperformed. It would be silly to give him the starting job over Wale based on his performance on the other side of the line. Doesn't work that way.

You're way overstating this. It's just a reallocation of the roles in the pen. Howry and (especially) Eyre will throw less innings, but no one's suggesting banishing them until there's a 10 run difference before letting them on the field. The risk of overuse is the same as it would be if Howry/Eyre were pitching well. Alright, then what you're talking about isn't really going to net much of a difference. Howry & Eyre will still be pitched.....will still suck, still blow leads for us. Unless they suddenly see the light, Lou will have to pull them to save leads, resulting in more innings for our current BP pitchers, which = more burnout. Net result, probably much the same. I don't like moving Guzman to the pen either. I'm not sure any of these other options are all that great.

I'd prefer he doesn't put the two relievers most responsible for blown holds and leads in hold situations. That's not too much to ask, considering Lou complains about it afterward. He's aware of the problem. He's fixing it the stupid way. What's the non-stupid way? Lean on Ohman and Wuertz every day and let Eyre and Howry rot? What do we do in August when their arms are burnt out? Wuertz is your primary RH set up, with Marmol backing up. Cotts and Ohman can be your LOOGY guys. You don't need a LH set up guy. Handle it like that until Howry and/or Eyre get straightened out in roles that see them coming in with a big lead or trailing, or when Wuertz, Marmol and the LOOGY's are unavailable. I don't think it's very realistic to deadweight 2 primary relievers and massively increase the load on your remaining arms. They'll be burned out by July, we're playing a lot of close games here.

I'd prefer he doesn't put the two relievers most responsible for blown holds and leads in hold situations. That's not too much to ask, considering Lou complains about it afterward. He's aware of the problem. He's fixing it the stupid way. What's the non-stupid way? Lean on Ohman and Wuertz every day and let Eyre and Howry rot? What do we do in August when their arms are burnt out?

I wonder if Alex had a heads up about this...perhaps why he's seeking a trade. I forget it it was Lawrence Holmes or Zack Zademan that was saying how good Hester looked out there catching passes, but admitted it will be different when there's contact. I still prefer Lovie's style of simply giving the starting job to the high performers, at least in many cases. We've been on the other side of this coin. The Dick Jauron / Dave Waanstedt style of "you're the veteran, you get the job unless you're injured" is B.S. and quite simply does not work very often. If Alex Brown can't handle it, then he should play better. He's a guy who has never really realized his full potential IMHO anyway. Mark Anderson flat out played better than Alex last year. Agreed, but then how do you explain Alex Brown behind Ogunleye. I thought Wale was in for a big year up until the Seattle game. He got hurt and didn't do anything the rest of the year. Alex was better against the run, had more sacks, forced fumbles, had 2 picks. Wait. What do you mean? Alex & Wale don't play the same position.

Should have locked this thread after this post, sums up this situation well. Not for me it doesn't. Eyre and Howry are simply bad pitchers, not magically made bad by Lou. That's a ridiculous assertion. The bullpen flat out sucks donkey balls, and no it's not because Lou is making them bad.

You mean in between innings, the only time Clemens will actually be with the team? Or perhaps in the shower, right before he towels off and scrams for the airport to get back to Texas until his next start?

Well, it's pretty hard to deny that we *are* desperate for something from the bullpen. I mean what would we prefer Lou do? Sit back and watch us blow 4 run leads every few days?

I wonder if Alex had a heads up about this...perhaps why he's seeking a trade. I forget it it was Lawrence Holmes or Zack Zademan that was saying how good Hester looked out there catching passes, but admitted it will be different when there's contact. I still prefer Lovie's style of simply giving the starting job to the high performers, at least in many cases. We've been on the other side of this coin. The Dick Jauron / Dave Waanstedt style of "you're the veteran, you get the job unless you're injured" is B.S. and quite simply does not work very often. If Alex Brown can't handle it, then he should play better. He's a guy who has never really realized his full potential IMHO anyway. Mark Anderson flat out played better than Alex last year.

It may be spotty, but it can't be any worse than Howry's Spotty? The balls are going everywhere! True, however, Howry's balls were getting hammered, while Marmol's balls are landing either at the catcher's glove or in the dirt. I'll take Marmol, but cringe if he needs to get the ball over the plate say, with bases loaded.

Go back to the south side, Sox fans........tails between legs. We win the series, go for the sweep tomorrow.

I see Marmol's control is still very spotty. Yikes.

Take some notes on that AB, Howry.

99 MPH? Marmol throws that hard?

Here's the pitch :Silence: Yep, that sounds about right. I'd have liked to see his face though.

his brain melted. So did mine! It feels freaking awesome! \:D/