Wilson A2000

Yes people would care if someone broke Maris' record with creatine. But creatine is not strong enough to do so. Anything that a person puts into his body must be extra powerful in order for a person to break Maris' record unless they were that once in a generation person would could do it cleanly. I don't think Bonds, Sosa, or McGwire was that person apart from the juice. I thought ARod could have been, but who knows now. This makes no sense. Bonds was 100 times the player Maris was, even before he juiced. If you laid out Bonds' and Maris' careers, Maris' is more suspect looking than Bonds' is. And you're still missing the point, that you should be upset that these players are breaking the law, not that they're breaking records. Every time an old record falls, the player that broke it did so with the aid of something that is "unfair" in that the old record holder didn't have access to it. But no one cares unless it's a home run record broken by a steroid user. Bonds was a better overall player than Aaron and Maris, but he would not have hit 73 without the juice and he would never have broken Aaron's record without it. I am upset that Bonds took something that was illegal. But this is a thread not on the legality of what Bonds did as much as it is the effect upon records and the integrity of the game. Another problem as I see it is that people are always looking at things from the short-term perspective. What will bring the fans back to baseball? I want to see a mammoth man wack a ball out of the park. People will get bored of baseball players and baseball itself when it becomes a game of pure power. I don't think the game could have survived long-term if the steroid question was not solved. Injuries would have become far too common (as they already have been). The fans end up paying more because salaries got out of control because of steroid-induced stats.

Certain drugs are illegal because they are extra potent. That is why creatine is not illegal in baseball, and anabolic steroids are. Yes people would care if someone broke Maris' record with creatine. But creatine is not strong enough to do so. Anything that a person puts into his body must be extra powerful in order for a person to break Maris' record unless they were that once in a generation person would could do it cleanly. I don't think Bonds, Sosa, or McGwire was that person apart from the juice. I thought ARod could have been, but who knows now.

They were just made illegal two years ago. Strong coffee pretty much did the same thing. Coffee has been used for years. I doubt any homerun records were dismantled because of greenies. you can't directly link steroids to broken home run records either. greenies were useful because they gave players that extra kick of energy they needed to get through the long season. steroids help you recover from fatigue and injuries more quickly (because I can't imagine players do a ton of heavy weight lifting during the season). in both cases, you still need to have bat speed, hand-eye-coordination, etc. that neither of those "supplements" can provide Yes you can. Bonds had his best years as his career was declining. He had his best years as soon as he was on the juice. His career path should have gone the other way. Big Mac was on the juice since his Oakland days. It is one thing to say that you don't think taking steroids is really a big deal. It is another thing to say that they weren't the cause of the home run binge from 1998-2005. Of course steroids don't swing the bat for you. They made good players great and great players world class ones.

that's actually a very good point. :shock: Weed is like creatine. Heroine is like anabolic steroids. The effect of steroids is many times stronger.

They were just made illegal two years ago. Strong coffee pretty much did the same thing. Coffee has been used for years. I doubt any homerun records were dismantled because of greenies.

No. I don't think you can erase records. But you can make sure they don't get into the Hall of Fame.

I know Roger Maris' record was overcome because of steroids

The problem is that the people who are hitting 50-60 home runs are not just using the legal supplements. They are all on steroids.

The reason that Barry Bonds hit the home runs he did is not because he worked out hard. He always did that. He hit the number he did at the end of his career because he was on steroids. Yes you still have to work out to get the benefits of steroids, but they give you so much more than the typical gym rat will get.

There is a big difference between the results creatine will give and the results anabolic steroids will bring. They aren't on the same level. I realize that it is a subjective process in determining what is banned and not banned, but the rules are the rules. Fine, the MLB did not impose punishments for taking steroids until 2003. But if you are going to take steroids and profit off of them (possibly extending your career and taking down cherished records), then you also have to be responsible for the poor persona you are going to acquire. You can't have your cake and eat it too. That is why the baseball writers and veterans committe might not vote a number of the high-profile steroid users in. And it is tough to disagree with a veterans committee member not voting Big Mac in someday when they know that he did something baseball said not to do in order to have the HR record for a time. McGwire had his day in the sun, now he will spend his days in the dark.

I don't want him to be guilty of that, just like I didn't want ARod to be (or claimed to be), but wasn't there a claim a while back that said that Pujols was involved with steroids?

In 1999 his games played began tailing off. He had only been inured once before that. Bonds began taking steroids in 99. That's more than a bit disingenuous on several levels. First, Bonds turned 34 that year. Aging is highly correlated with injuries. Second, he played an average of 2 fewer games per season from 2000-2004 than he did from 1995-1998. (and I'm not sure you understand what I was saying, because you just restated the correlation) I am sure that there were times when steroids extended his career, and other times when it took some ABs away from him in a season. Barry played about the same number of games late in his career as he did earlier in his career, but he ABs went down significantly. He was used as a PH the times he didn't start. Bonds: "It makes me grow faster, but if you're not careful, you can blow it out." He did just that to his elbow in 99.

In 1999 his games played began tailing off. He had only been inured once before that. Bonds began taking steroids in 99.

Barry was very healthy right up until 2000 when he started taking steroids. The original SI article documents this pretty clearly if I remember correctly. Just wait 10-20 years. Bonds' body will deteriorate much more quickly than the average baseball player's body. That's pretty tenuous evidence. Steroids ruined his knees? How? "Game of Shadows" maintains that he blew out his elbow which almost ruined his career in 1999. He also suffered a torn triceps when he got the elbow examined. After he missed seven weeks, he returned and pulled a groin. Later that year he complained of back and knee problems. In 2001 Barry began breaking down. He only had 56 hits that year. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/magazine/03/06/growth0313/index.html

Barry was very healthy right up until 2000 when he started taking steroids. The original SI article documents this pretty clearly if I remember correctly. Just wait 10-20 years. Bonds' body will deteriorate much more quickly than the average baseball player's body.

Using a substance to break cherished records or unnaturally inflate statistics is awesome? If you like seeing big huge goons wack something around, try WWE. Forget the home runs...I like 'em just for how they kept guys off the DL and could prolong peak years and awesome careers. Many steroids put guys on the DL. Bonds is one example.

Using a substance to break cherished records or unnaturally inflate statistics is awesome? If you like seeing big huge goons wack something around, try WWE. Everyone uses substances. It's just a matter of which substance is on which arbtirary list. Not everyone uses them. Not everyone uses horse steroids. Even if everyone used them does not justify them using them. I think it was for the good of baseball for them to crack down on steroid usage. Long-term, I don't think the game would be as interesting or as profitable if guys were consistently hitting 60, 70, 80 home runs a year. That would be too common, and it wouldn't hold people's interest. The home run derby is the boringest thing I have seen. The regular season was once a home run derby.

Using a substance to break cherished records or unnaturally inflate statistics is awesome? If you like seeing big huge goons wack something around, try WWE.

Bonds, ARod, Clemens, and McGwire won't make the HOF. That is certainly something to be gained. I couldn't disagree with you more And I couldn't with you.

Bonds, ARod, Clemens, and McGwire won't make the HOF. That is certainly something to be gained.

Agreed. It was a time when almost the entire league was using, the management failed to do anything about it, and it's over. This just makes me sad because it will give meatball sports fans another excuse to hate him. Steroids were illegal to use per MLB policy during that time. Unfortunately there were no official repercussions for using them. I don't see why I can't be displeased with steroid-induced players. They broke or are breaking records because of steroids, and I have reason to be unhappy with them. Just because the entire league was using them (I doubt everyone was, maybe 50%) does not mean that I can't be angry. What irks me is that the HR record was broken by Bonds. I don't see major NFL or NBA records being broken as a direct result of known steroid users.

Now that ARod is tainted, Sammy has to be next. I can't believe no one has dug up some real dirt on him yet.

I'm not too familiar with Boldin, but is he a speed guy or only a run-after-the-catch guy. The Bears need someone who can stretch the field.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs2008/news/story?id=3843834 Boldin stomping off because he didn't get enough balls his way. But seriously, you are hurt and Fitzgerald is playing his butt off. This is the type of guy that would rather lose and get 100 yards and 2 TDs than be part of a Super Bowl team.

Brewers 85-90 wins Reds 82-88 wins Cubs 81-87 wins Cards 76-81 wins Astros 72- 77 wins Pirates 65-70 wins The Brewers are not in the 85-90 win range. Maybe 85-90 losses.