gus_dog

Do you know what the slugging pct. of that .210 is? I don't know where IMB! got .210 from, opponents hit .180 off Farnsworth this year. Their SLG against him was a robust .275, for a less than .100 IsoP. That's fantastic. That's kind of surprising. It seems like whenever he gets hit, he gets nailed. That, and the walks. He that that one fantastic year (2001, IIRC), and a very good 2003, with the cubs, but it seemed he battled inconsistency during the rest of his time with the cubs.

It was a bad call, however there's no way to say the Sox would not have won in the bottom of the tenth. Of course, the Angels could also have won it in the tenth. Just an awful call on two fronts: 1) The batter swung and missed, the catcher caught the ball, the batter was out. Easy call. 2) Ump makes what appears to be th correct call, consistent with the way he has called the whole game up to this point, then inexplicably reverses his call. Angels get screwed out of an at bat.

Do you know what the slugging pct. of that .210 is?

IMO, Farnsworth's pitches flatten out, and lack late movement. Yes, he throws hard, but ML hitters like pitchers who throw hard with little movement.

This really irks me about Sox fans who claim this 'blue-collar heritage', and refer to Cubs fans as all yuppies. That knife cuts both ways. Most of the Sox fans I know personally are professionals (accountants, lawyers). That is because I am an accountant, and so I know many of them, however, I was raised in a decidedly blue collar household that 'bled cubbie blue'. It really annoys me to read articles in the paper, such as this one: http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-nws-nocelebs12.html Where they act as if they're the only team in town with hard working folks as fans. Sheesh, and Sox fans think Cub fans are annoying.

Gawd, I can't believe how many brand spanking new Sox caps have sprung up over the past couple of weeks on the el every morning.

Tim McCarver still has the Cardinals to root for. As does Joe Buck. I don't think Buck is a homer on national telecasts, but Tim McCardinalfan is terrible, IMO.

Come to the darkside! :twisted: Noooooo!!!! Don't do it! Look away from the red...., move away from the red.....

Those are some unusual names. I think the 1977 Cubs also had quite a few odd names: George Mitterwald Bill Buckner Manny Trillo Steve Ontiveros Ivan DeJesus Bobby Murcer Jerry Morales Greg Gross Larry Biittner Gene Clines Jose Cardenal Steve Swisher Mick Kelleher Dave Rosello Joe Wallis Mike Gordon Bobby Darwin Randy Hundley Mike Sember Mike Adams Rick Reuschel Ray Burris Bill Bonham Mike Krukow Bruce Sutter Dave Roberts Willie Hernandez Steve Renko Paul Reuschel Donnie Moore Dennis Lamp Pete Broberg Dave Giusti Ramon Hernandez Jim Todd

God, these Bears really suck...., badly. Cleveland tried really, really hard to give them the game, but the Bears tried harder to give it back. I'd be surprised if the Bears get five wins. :( What's funny is that 7-9 might be good enough to win the NFC North. :shock:

I, as well as many others, disagree with this assertion. Wrigley CAN be a hitters park, but it can also be a pitchers park. Overall, it is very close to neutral, or slightly leaning towards a hitters park, IMO. Not a 'heck of a hitter's park'. Back in the 70's, Wrigley was a heck of a hitter's park. Compared to the caverns of the day, anyway. With the bandboxes of the past 20 years, Wrigley is fairly neutral when compared with other parks. But not back then. But even back then, the wind blowing in would make it seem cavernous.

Too late. Haven't you already commented just by saying that you're withholding comment? :?: I've gone and confused myself! :( :?

I, as well as many others, disagree with this assertion. Wrigley CAN be a hitters park, but it can also be a pitchers park. Overall, it is very close to neutral, or slightly leaning towards a hitters park, IMO. Not a 'heck of a hitter's park'.

Too soon to tell, IMO.

And they will spank the Cardinals! :D 8)

That's a fine theory. The problem is that the only difference between Mac & Sosa and some of the guys that you openly admire is that Sosa & Mac got "caught" (not Mac, really...... but the perception is that he did). Basically, you're either naive enough to think that others aren't cheating, or you're OK with it as long as they don't get "busted". So, just because others do it, is it OK? I mean, you keep bring it up - 'others'. Who cares about 'others'. We're not talking about 'others', we're talking about McGwire. It's just like that weak-ass argument when McGwire was on Andro - it's legal. Newsflash - Just because something is 'legal' doesn't make it the right thing to do. McGwire was a cheater. Proof? No. But it is very difficult to see it any other way given the preponderance of circumstantial evidence, coupled with the weak testimony given to Congress. Whether or not Sosa, Bonds, Canseco or 50% of the league were on 'roids doesn't make it any more acceptable or tolerable for McGwire.

A Cardinal fan I admire, you are. -yoda

It's very underrated, or so I am told. Check out the R&R Hall of Fame while you're there.

Say goodbye, Kerry Wood.

:? :?: Your original post on the matter indicated that YOU think that Cardinal fans are "different". I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect you to understand Cardinal fans reacting to McGwire, because you're not a Cardinal fan, and you've never experienced one of "your guys" accomplishing a feat like that. Quick question - Who was the first ML player to ever hit 66 homers in a single season? Answer - Sammy Sosa. He reached 66 before McGwire in 1998. Sammy, I suppose, was one of 'my guys'. However, he was never one of my favourites because of his me-first, showboating style. Plus, like I wrote before, for me, it's more about the team/game, than a given player. That was a strange, surreal evening at Busch in September 1998. Maybe Cardinal fans are different - they sure were different that night, and continue to revere McGwire in an idyllic way.

:? :?:

I agree with that. No one is trying to take away their right to cheer. This thread is simply pointing out the paradox of it, and how it reflects on 'baseball's best fans' (sic).

First off, you make it seem like being a Cardinal fan is somehow very different than being a fan of another team. It's not. Cardinal fans have not cornered the market on some special kind of fan karma that only they can understand. I understand what it is like to look at pro athletes as role models, and to look at your team/organization as if it is the best ever. I understande these things just fine. However, they're still VERY fallible, and if they prove themselves unworthy of admiration, then it seems to me the admiration would (or should) be lost. Not with McGwire though, huh? I never said they were "wrong", however, I do agree that as far as this McGwire thing is concerned, they are out of touch with reality. They idolize and have canonized a liar and a cheat, and they don't care. I guess that in and of itself says alot. I apologize to some fans for tossing them in that mix. I knew many Cardinal fans who were almost as taken aback as myself over the hoopla surrounding McGwire. It superseded the team, and the game, which for a fan of the TEAM, and the GAME, kind of ruins it for me. Sure, I cheer individual accomplishments, but for me, the enjoyment comes from the team/game. Also, you made some incorrect assumptions: I lived in Saint Louis (Holly Hills neighbourhood), I was not on vacation. The Post was my daily paper where I lived and looked for the news.

Yes, that's it exactly. BTW, I was not comparing steroid using to being a rapist, because that is not a valid comparison. I was merely making a statement to illustrate how maniacal the Cardinal fans were about McGwire. I believe that statement too. The next day, the Post-Dispatch had a full page photo of McGuyver, uh, I mean McGwire in his follow-through after hitting his record-breaking home run on the front page. It was the front page, the whole front page, not the sports page, but the front page (you know where normally an article about a presidential impeachment hearing would be). It had St. Louis Post-Dispatch across the top, and then the picture all the way to the bottom, and across the bottom of the photo, in 1.5 inch red lettering was: JUBILATION! :shock: I was absolutely stunned. I guess I shouldn't have been. That paper is such a rag. It ranks beside the Sun-Times in terms of journalistic abuse. They just fed the frenzy though - it sold papers. I threw the paper away, but my wife picked it out of the dust bin, and said it might be worth some money some day. Good point. We still have it....I should scan it in and post it on this thread. Anyhoo, my point is that it is a game. The greatest game, IMO, but still just a game. The players are people, not gods. To make these things out to be more than that is completely out of touch with reality. Yet another example of out out of hand it was that summer.

I was living in Saint Louis in 1998, and I observed firsthand the ridiculousness of that 'fake' race. I was actually at the game where McGwire broke the record, and witnessed the many legions of Cardinal fans, with their hearts palpitating, high fiving (as if THEY did something), and generally worshipping Saint Mark. After McGwire hit the homer to break the record, I clapped politely, then scurried off to the john and grabbed a beer. There were no crowds in the restrooms because the vast majority were busy undulating and prostrating themselves over a home run. It was a disgusting display that went on wayyy to long, and was way over played. And these are the same fans that say Cub fans are dumb sheep. I was actually in awe of what I could only characterize as a mass psychosis. Really wierd. I had to catch a bus after riding the 'Link to the West End, so I took off as soon as the final out was made. I came out to the concourse, and the ushers were making everyone exit through the turnstyles. I asked the usher why the large grates were not raised to allow people to get out, and he said that there were too many people outside the stadium, and they were afraid they would rush the building. I was running late, and clearly irritated that I had to stand in line for ten minutes just to get out of the ballpark, but whatever. So, I finally get out, and there were hundreds of people out there hoping just to 'feel the moment', I guess? I had several instances of people wanting to buy my ticket stub. I sold it for $200 to some sucker wearing a Cardinal hat and a McGwire jersey. These fans..., I believe that they would cheer for McGwire if he was subsequently found out to be the southside rapist.