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DONT YOU CALL HIM THAT WETSKE

A lot of people didn't already hate Neifi before this season?

I don't recall Barrett, Burnitz, or Walker "carrying a team" for any stretch this year. That's a ridiculous way to determine anything, completely based on each individual's recollection of events Barrett and Burnitz never really hurt the team either. Burnitz has never really slumped and produced all year long. Barrett despite not having a great year was terriffic defensively at the beginning, throwing out a bunch of attempted basestealers, as I pointed out before. He'd probably have kept it up if not for an ailing shoulder. Neither has been a player that is hurting the lineup. So you can call it ridiculous, but the point that you can't debate is that despite maybe three good defensive plays and two meaningful home runs, he's been awful consistently. I'll let Fred dredge up the stats for you if he feels like it, but suffice to say that Barrett and Burnitz, just like every player not named Pujols or Bonds, have gone through a streak where they've been cold and have hurt the team. That's not the point. The point is that we can actually recall on one hand the times that Corey Patterson helped this team in 2005. Don't you see how ridiculous that is? Yeah, he's been really bad this year, wonderful, groundbreaking analysis. Personally, I dont judge players based on how many times I can "recall them helping the team". You didn't "recall" Barrett or Burnitz hurting the team this year either, but they did. Of course, when shown those stats, you just ignored them and changed your point. Not that we should really be arguing, because I think we both agree that Corey has sucked this year and deserves some of the blame.

Both of those teams would do both of those deals.

I don't recall Barrett, Burnitz, or Walker "carrying a team" for any stretch this year. That's a ridiculous way to determine anything, completely based on each individual's recollection of events Barrett and Burnitz never really hurt the team either. Burnitz has never really slumped and produced all year long. Barrett despite not having a great year was terriffic defensively at the beginning, throwing out a bunch of attempted basestealers, as I pointed out before. He'd probably have kept it up if not for an ailing shoulder. Neither has been a player that is hurting the lineup. So you can call it ridiculous, but the point that you can't debate is that despite maybe three good defensive plays and two meaningful home runs, he's been awful consistently. I'll let Fred dredge up the stats for you if he feels like it, but suffice to say that Barrett and Burnitz, just like every player not named Pujols or Bonds, have gone through a streak where they've been cold and have hurt the team.

i didnt say anything about dontrelle. actually, i didnt say anything about anyone because i dont care who starts this game.

oh no clemens throws a perfect inning, I guess we were right.

The good ones can do it on accident. He can't do it if he tries. The point is he doesn't have the physical strenght or the discipline to hit a ball hard on the outside corner and drive it deep. I dont know how you can say he doesnt have the strength for it. He's the strongest guy on the team, upper body strength wise, he just doesnt have the swing or discipline to go the other way. I agree Corey's main problem is discipline---and I would add to that his bat speed needs to improve, or at least the length of his swing (it's just too long & loopy). But there's no way in hell Corey possesses more upper body strength than Derek Lee & ARam. Corey's a pretty strong kid for his size, but he's not in Lee or Ramirez's class strength-wise. I read an article last season that said that Corey has the highest bench press of any Cub. He's ridiculously strong. This isnt even the point however, people dont hit a lot of homeruns because of their strong upper body.

that thing was destroyed.

Yeah, The Pronk is right up there with Miggy and Bellhorn as my favorite players.

The good ones can do it on accident. He can't do it if he tries. The point is he doesn't have the physical strenght or the discipline to hit a ball hard on the outside corner and drive it deep. I dont know how you can say he doesnt have the strength for it. He's the strongest guy on the team, upper body strength wise, he just doesnt have the swing or discipline to go the other way. Adam Dunn, I think we would all agree is at the top of the list as far as strongest homerun hitters go. He hits mammoth homeruns, no one would ever accuse him of having warning track power. How many homeruns does he have to opposite field? Two. If you want to say that Corey isn't a good hitter, no one will disagree with you, but to say that he doesnt have power because he doesnt hit the ball out to the opposite field is stupid.

Most homerun hitters don't go to opposite field.

Dont you, though? Totally off-topic, but my grandfather says that all the time. Me:Yeah, the food was good. Him:Wasn't it, though? Me:Yeah, I love hamburgers. Him:Dont you, though? Me:Yeah, they put the extra spice on there. Him:Dont they, though?

I love when people cant handle being in an argument, and resort to either changing their argument on the fly, or misrepresenting what the other person is saying.

Hahaha, that was awesome.

I wanted to see if I was beating up Treeman, since he took me down last year, and lo and behold. 182. IMB-Suckiest Bunch of Sucks that ever Sucked 353. Treeman-One True Outcome:Failure

I don't want to trade eigher Z or Wood. I didnt mean you, specifically.

win loss record is entirely meaningless for a pitcher because it is determined by team performance (i.e. offensive run support, among other things) k rate matters a great deal. studies have shown that it is one of the best predictors for determining which pitchers will go on to have success in the major leagues and which pitchers will not. other excellent statistics to look at are hr/9 and bb/9. and fun combinations of them like hr/k and k/bb Oooh ooh ooh, my favorite stat for minor league pitchers is xbh/k.

So what are you saying? We don't have to choose between them, we have them both. What I'm saying is, we cant go 10 minutes without someone posting their great, new TRADE WOOD thread, but if you say you would trade Zambrano, people flip out and go crazy. During healthy periods (an admittedly smallish sample) Wood has been Z's equal. Due to age/contract, we could get an f-ton more for Z than we could for Wood, so who do you want to trade now?

I think we pretty much believe the same thing (looking at all metrics), only you seem to care about W/L record, at least a little bit, while I don't care if I ever see that stat line outside of fantasy baseball.

Yeah, Pie is coachable and Corey isn't. Corey's walk rate in the minors was better than Pie's is now. How long will Pie be in the majors before people get sick of him not walking and start calling him uncoachable?

Well, it appears that we are at an empass then. Hahah, I'll pretend this was a joke. What makes you think I haven't? Following the in crowd? Hahaha.

And wrong. Prove it. Hahah, why? So we can sit here and argue for an hour? I got an idea, I'll go argue with a brick wall, it will be just as much fun. It's pointless. You've heard it all before. I'm sure this isn't the first time you've made your outdated opinion heard. If you want to continue believing that wins are an effective way to measure a pitchers worth, be my guest. Someone has to be wrong.

And wrong.

who? Are you being serious? Bill James, Rob Neyer, etc etc... These guys know pitching, why dont you ask them what they think about "wins" describing how good a pitcher is. Maybe you'd be more comfortable talking to Joe Morgan.