Wins have been the #1 standard for the effectiveness of a starter since baseball began. Really? The Cubs had a pitcher last year that was 0-3 after 7 starts, which also happened to be his first ever 7 starts. They should have just kicked him to the curb because he sucked, eh? In 5 of those games, he left giving up 2 runs or less. Think about that for a minute. His ERA was very young Greg Maddux like during that entire 7 games and he didn't win a single one of those games. He ended up 12-10 with a 3.05 ERA, 10th best ERA in the National League. Joe Saunders went 16-7 this year with a 4.60 ERA, and his record was better than Zack Grienke's 16-8 with a 2.16 ERA, so by your calculations, Joe Saunders is better than Zack Grienke. Awesome! :stickman: Name 5 HOF starting pitchers who do not have winning records. Go ahead..we'll wait. http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/strawman2.jpg