K-Town

It wasn't that close? As of Sept. 21, the two were dead even in Win Shares (which takes defense into account). Lee was slightly ahead in VORP, as of the last update, but Pujols had a very good weekend, so that will be extremely close, also. Which numbers are you using to determine that it wasn't that close?

"Integrity of the game"? Since when has the game been about "integrity"? Like I said, it's easy for you to make a target out of McGwire, who has (in your mind) been "busted" for doing something wrong. Meanwhile, you want to ignore the fact that half of the league has probably done something that you would consider "lacking integrity". You simply don't know about it, so you ignore it. I think it makes you angry that Mac won't give you anything concrete, so all you're left with is your assumptions. That's why you'd "respect him more" if he admitted to doing something. Then you could really tear into him. If you're going to take away records/medals from every player who has ever "not done it the right way", then you're going to have to go back WAY further than McGwire. Go back to the pre-50's, when the records were set against and by only white American players (because the "integrity" in the league back then wasn't strong enough to allow non-whites to play their precious game). Go back to the 70's & 80's, when players were using "speed" to get an edge. You want to make McGwire a target, because it's the simple answer for you. I don't blame you. Doesn't matter. You can try to take away his records (although he doesn't really hold any records that you can take from him). Frankly, I don't think he cares. Neither to most St. Louis fans. The excitement that he brought to St. Louis in '98 can't be taken away. Not by baseball, not by you, not by anybody.

So, if the Cards had Lee at first instead of Pujols would they be sitting at home in October? No. If Lee played for the Cards, he'd probably be the MVP. But the Cubs would have gotten the same ultimate result with Scott Hatteberg playing first base as they did with Derrek Lee. So Lee's "value" is diminished, somewhat. I find that statement bogus. His value isn't diminished, the team just didn't utilize his value. Is the value of a Monet diminshed if some art collector hides it in his attic, or does it have the same value whether that value is utilized for its greatest affect. My lawn mower still has the same value whether I use it or not. Just because I'm foolish to own a mower and still pay someone to mow the lawn doesn't diminish the value of the mower I own. I don't necessarily disagree with that premise. I'm not saying that Hatteberg is as valuable as Lee. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that when the MVP race is extremely close (which it is), then it makes more sense to give it to the player on the playoff team, which is basically the same point that Ryno was making.

So, if the Cards had Lee at first instead of Pujols would they be sitting at home in October? No. If Lee played for the Cards, he'd probably be the MVP. But the Cubs would have gotten the same ultimate result with Scott Hatteberg playing first base as they did with Derrek Lee. So Lee's "value" is diminished, somewhat.

Some of you take the game way, way, WAY too seriously. I watch the game for the enjoyment of the game. I enjoyed what McGwire did in St. Louis. Nobody's going to take that enjoyment away from me. Not only that, but McGwire is a decent human being. The sanctimonious attitude that some of you exhibit is almost laughable. I think that some of you are downright HAPPY that you think you have a legitimate reason to hate McGwire. Furthermore, this attitude is pretty short-sighted. You think it's OK to hate Mac, because 1) he was highly successful, and 2) you've convinced yourself that he's been proven guilty of something (even though he hasn't). Meanwhile, you want to ignore the fact that some of your heroes are likely doing the same thing that McGwire was (or might have been) doing. But as long as they don't break any of your sacred records while doing it, and as long as they don't get "busted", you'll love them just the same. McGwire is loved in St. Louis. Always will be. The fact that Cardinal fans don't carry the bitterness around with them that alot of the rest of you choose to carry around is what allows them to enjoy the game so much, in my opinion.

I'm a big fan of Cabrera, but how is he "better than Pujols at a younger age?" Cabrera's highest season OPS (this year) is a few points lower than Pujols' worst season (2002). Cabrera is 22 now, and Pujols was 22 in 2002. I'd call Pujols the better fielder, too. He was better at third than Cabrera, and he actually played short in a game in 2002. There's no question that Cabrera is a better value than Pujols. Pujols is the second-best 1B in baseball this year and makes $11 million. Cabrera is the second-best LF in baseball this year (behind Jason Bay) and makes $370,000. I'd be glad to have them both, of course. :wink: Park Factors. Cabrera on the road this year: 1.016 OPS Which is still well below what Pujols does on a regular basis. If you use stats like Win Shares and VORP, Cabrera isn't on the same level as Pujols this year, and wasn't even on the same planet last year.

Travis Hafner, Cleveland David Wright, NY Mets

That's pretty harsh. The Indians have played GREAT. Expecting them to win every game they play is a bit optimistic.

How is Willis an underdog?

I'm just going to say that I don't think either will ever again experience the same level of success they have this year. Considering that Carpenter had more consecutive Quality Starts this year than anybody since the 1920's, I'd say it's going to be a pretty hard standard to repeat. I expect Lee to have a terrific season next year, but it would be alot to ask for him to contend for the MVP again. So yeah, I think it's safe to say that neither of them should be expected to repeat what they're doing.

I haven't followed him that closely, but is Angel Guzman a rotation option for the '06 Cubs?

Carpenter led in pitching Win Shares, last time I checked, and Clemens' lead in VORP is minimal enough now that I don't think that even the VORP folks can justify voting for Clemens over Carpenter, given the 9 extra wins, and the 26 extra innings that Carpenter has pitched. But, the season isn't over yet. If Carpenter stumbles, he's toast.

I'm kinda enjoying the Sox implosion, also. Problem is, if they sneak in as a Wild Card, nobody will remember it as one of the biggest chokes in baseball history. :cry:

Look out....Willis might just swoop in there and take it!! He's got a head start, just because of the "style points". Carpenter needs a good start, to put a lock on this thing. Otherwise, it's up in the air.

Neither Carpenter or Clemens are cruising to the finish line, are they? They've both looked pretty ordinary, lately.

Tino was booed this season and it wasn't because he is with the Yankees. He wasn't introduced as a former Cardinal, was he?

according to third order wins, the braves should be 78-69 and in third place. they are outpeforming their expected record by 6 games. i dont know what kind of argument you were trying to make, so i have no idea whether this helps or hurts it. EDITED because even though i dont use capital letters, i still don't like to have unnecessary commas. So what you're saying is that virtually none of the teams are performing according to their "expected wins". Wouldn't that make the "expected wins" system somewhat flawed?

No way. Guarantee it. There would be a few exceptions, but the boo's probably wouldn't even be heard through the cheers.

So 5 of the 8 position players on the Cubs are better than the Cards, and 6th one is a wash this year (Lee/Pujols). So that means that you'd only take the Cards for 2 of the 8 positions? And yet the Cards have scored 80 more runs than the Cubs. I don't get your logic. isn't wolf a cards fan? I don't know. His logic is flawed, regardless of who he's a fan of.

I think that the Cardinals would have been pretty confident with Anthony Reyes stepping in, if the rotation needed help. My guess is that the Cards would have hardly missed a beat. Losing Prior didn't hurt the Cubs. Rusch was outstanding in Prior's absence. Losing Wood may have hurt the Cubs a little. The Cubs shouldn't have been caught by surprise, and should have had an adequate replacement at AAA. They didn't. The Cubs' best starter has been healthy all year. Their second best starter missed a few starts, but Rusch made sure it didn't hurt the Cubs, so that wasn't a factor. The Cards have also had injuries to their bullpen (Izzy, early in the year, plus Lincoln, plus Eldred). The difference is that the Cards have had very solid replacement players (Thompson, Reyes, etc.).

Let me also add that if Tino Martinez or Gary Templeton were introduced as former Cardinals, they'd be loudly cheered, also.

Sadly, I agree. I think you'll hear some boos then some others will feel obligated to drown out the boos by standing and cheering. Just as some other poster stated. I can't believe McGwire retires by sending a fax to ESPN, not the Cardinals, then does everything but admit to using steroids and the fans will be totally forgiving. One guy who should be upset is Tony LaRussa who went way out of his way defending McGwire throughout the whole Canseco allegation, only to find out that it's extremely likely that McGwire did take steroids. Yet if Tino Martinez came back he would get booed. :scratch: McGwire brought Cardinal fans FAR more joy than misery. It's not even close. TLR and most Cardinal fans also know that McGwire isn't perfect, but he's also not a monster. 90% of Cardinal fans realize that, and they'll stand and roar for him. Larussa will hug him and smile from ear to ear. Guarantee it.

So 5 of the 8 position players on the Cubs are better than the Cards, and 6th one is a wash this year (Lee/Pujols). So that means that you'd only take the Cards for 2 of the 8 positions? And yet the Cards have scored 80 more runs than the Cubs. I don't get your logic.

With a lineup featuring John Gall (23 career at-bats) as the clean-up hitter, followed by So Taguchi, Scott Seabol, Einar Diaz, and Hector Luna............ I'd say that Larussa isn't overly anxious to clinch today.

When you say "Pujols", I assume you mean "Albert Pujols", who has the second most errors among major league first basemen? Well, in fairness to Prince Albert, he also leads the league in total chances. In fact, he leads the league by ALOT.