K-Town

Yup. Based on last year's criteria, Carpenter should be a shoe-in. It'll be somewhat hypocritical if Clemens wins this year for the same reasons that Johnson DIDN'T win, last year. If Houston doesn't nail down a playoff spot, Clemens shouldn't even be considered.

Why? That's why rate stats exist. That's what I've used in my argument. Cumulative stats favor Gibson b/c of disparity of IP, rate stats favor Clemens. Pitchers threw 130 pitches, but it didn't matter because the hitters weren't as good? Are you saying that "easier hitters" makes it easier to whip your arm 130 times, as opposed to "difficult hitters"? 130 pitches is 130 pitches, isn't it? Maybe I'm wrong. I'm not opposed to rate stats. If you're going to over-emphasize rate stats though (considering Clemens has about 1/2 as many innings as Gibson), then I'll make a case for Chad Cordero to win the Cy Young Award this year, because of his 1.05 ERA. And, I still don't know how a starting pitcher with Clemens' ERA could have completed ZERO games. That doesn't make a drop of sense to me, and it's completely unprecedented.

Different era. If Gibson faced today's hitters, he'd get rocked. We'll never know...... If Gibson paced himself for only 200 innings per year, instead of 300, he may have been much more effective.

By the way, Gibson wasn't "taking hitters off" very often. He averaged 130 pitches per game that year. AVERAGED!! Clemens wouldn't DREAM of throwing that many pitches in even ONE GAME. If Clemens had done what Gibson did, he wouldn't have lasted to the All-Star break.

I'm not sure about "taking hitters off". It seems like a stretch, but arguing that point with you would be like chasing ghosts, I suppose. I guess we'll just have to disagree. I can assure that Gibson didn't take himself out of any games in the 7th inning in August when his team desperately needed him to shut the opponent down in the middle of a pennant race, because of an uncomfortable back. Clemens is having a spectacular season, but comparing Clemens' 160 innings to Gibson's 300 seems like quite a stretch, to me. I'm sure that Hoerner was a fine closer. Gibson saw to it that the other starters in the rotation were able to take full utilization of him. Clemens doesn't give his team that luxury. Lidge has to cover Clemens in practically every one of his starts, meaning that one of the other starters in the rotation won't have that luxury during that stretch of games.

Sometimes it's been the manager's decision. The example that I gave you was Clemens' decision to leave. I'm not sure how often that happened. Regardless, I'm not "faulting" him. I'm just saying that it's a factor. Clemens has been effective late in games, yes. How effective has he been in the 9th inning of games? How about the 8th inning? (Hint: he's only seen the 8th inning 3 times). I'm not sure what you mean about "Gibson's 160 IP stretch". Did you single out Gibson's first 160 IP's, or what? I'm not sure what you mean. Clemens has been better than Gibson in a similar time frame (and better than Carpenter, for that matter), because he has the advantage of only being expected to go about 7 innings. He can pitch carefully, not challenge hitters, stay fresh, etc. If you've got a great bullpen, that strategy is fine. Houston's bullpen hasn't done so well for Gibson this year, so the lack of going the distance has hurt his team. How do you measure how much a pitcher helps his team by keeping the bullpen rested? I'm not sure. Gibson certainly did that (leaps and bounds better than Clemens). Carpenter has done it, too. It's similar to Mark Prior, I think. He's GREAT. But I'm sure it's frustrating to Cubs fans sometimes that he's spent by the 6th or 7th inning (forcing the suspect bullpen into the game), because he hasn't challenged enough hitters, and gone right after them. I expect you can be alot more effective for 7 innings, if you know that's all that's expected of you. I'm not sure it's the best strategy for the team, though. Again, how can a starting pitcher with an ERA that good only see the 8th inning 3 times all year? I honestly don't get it.

I don't think it's a horrible idea to "coddle" Clemens. But if a pitcher that needs to be coddled, then it should take something away from his Cy Young consideration, in my opinion. It wouldn't be a horrible idea to rest Carpenter a little. That's part of the reason that Reyes came up for a spot start last week. Larussa is trying to get all of his starters an extra day off every week or so.

Maybe. We know that it was Clemens' decision to take himself out of the last game, despite pitching well, and his team playing a tight game. You're right. Garner may not want to overuse him, which is why I said earlier that he's being "coddled".

No, I don't expect a starter to throw a complete game every start. But how can you explain a starter with Clemens ERA not being able to finish even ONE game? His numbers ARE staggering. I never said they weren't.

Then why didn't he stick around to try to get the win? Obviously, his team was still very much in all of those games (as you pointed out).

I'm strictly comparing Clemens to Carpenter, and not the rest of the league. Compared to Carpenter, Clemens hasn't been as durable, or given himself a chance to win as often. Clemens is actually 43 years old, but that has nothing to do with who should win the Cy Young Award. Another quirky stat: Clemens has only pitched 3 games ALL YEAR against teams that would be in the playoffs, if the playoffs started today (2 against St. Louis, 1 against Atlanta). He's 1-0 (his team scored 4 runs for him in that game), and his team is 1-2 in those games. Carpenter has pitched 7 games against teams that would be in the playoffs, if the playoffs started today. He's 4-2, and his team is 5-2 in those games. Clemens is 3-3 against the NL Central. Carpenter is 10-0 vs. the NL Central. Thank Carpenter has had something to do with the Cards' big NL Central lead?

The rate stats say that Clemens has been better than Gibson was (so far). So if Clemens decides that his bad back won't allow him to pitch one more inning this year, are you going to conclude that he had a better year than Gibson? If Clemens had tried to do what Gibson did for his team, he would have never survived the season. I can't speak for every game, but Clemens pulled himself out of the game Saturday night, because his back was uncomfortable: Clemens said his back -- which he said he injured while moving furniture at his home in late July -- prevented him from coming out for the ninth inning. ``I'm getting by,'' he said. ``I know the results are looking good, but I want to get to a point where my body feels good without hurting something and then have to miss a start. I don't want that to happen.'' Clemens said he needed ``to get off this medicine that's tearing my ...'' before stopping himself. He would not say what medication he was taking, and then quickly said the medicine was not causing the problem. I never said that Clemens is a short innings pitcher, but if a guy has an ERA as good as Clemens has, and hasn't finished a single game all year, I pretty much have to conclude that he's being "coddled". Call me crazy. The Aug. 13 game is one example of a game that he MIGHT have been able to win, if he had stuck around. On 6/28, he left after 7 innings with a big lead. The bullpen blew the game, so Clemens didn't win. I can promise you that Carpenter would have gone back to the mound in the 8th, and nailed the game down for his team. On 7/8, Houston scored a run in the 9th inning to win, but again, Clemens wasn't able to stick around long enough to get the win. On June 11, he again only stuck around for 7 innings, after allowing only 3 hits and 1 run. His team went on to score enough runs for the win, but Clemens didn't stick around long enough for the decision. On May 24, he only went 5 innings, despite only allowing 2 hits, and 0 runs. His team had a lead when he left, but Qualls came in from the bullpen and blew it. Again, Clemens didn't stick around long enough to see the decision. On May 4, he again went only 7 innings, giving up 2 runs (his team ended up scoring 4 that day, but Clemens was long gone before having a chance to get the win). Again, Clemens has been great when he's on the mound, but his durability has to count against him.

I won't dispute it under that premise, but I will dispute it. Gibson started 34 games in 1968, and completed 28 of them (including 13 shutouts). Clemens has yet to finish a game this year. If Clemens would stick around long enough in games this year, he MIGHT be able to win a few more (his last start was a picture-perfect example), but apparently he's more concerned about keeping his ERA in check, rather than helping his team win games. What Clemens is doing doesn't compare to what Gibson did in 1968, in my opinion Clemens has been spectacular. But the fact that he's not staying in games long enough to get himself into trouble (or to get himself a couple of extra wins) should work against him, in my opinion. Carpenter "toughs it out", every chance he gets, and the extra work load, while possibly costing him a few points on his ERA, has probably kept his bullpen fresh enough to make up for it. Clemens's ERA has been "coddled" a bit by getting him out of games early, in my opinion. Has a starting pitcher ever won a Cy Young Award, without completing a single game? I don't have time to look it up, but I seriously doubt it. Considering that Cy Young himself started 906 games, and finished 815 of them tells me that this should be given SOME consideration (yes, I know it's a competely different era). If Carpenter can win 22 or 24 games, while losing only 4 or 5, and finish with an ERA around 2, and be among the top 3 in strikeouts, it would sure seem like a shame if he didn't win the Cy Young Award. It's amazing that Carpenter is, arguably, having a better season than any NL starting pitcher has had in 6 or 8 years, and all we hear about is his "run support". All of that said, Clemens is having an unbelievable year, also.