K-Town

I'd love to see that, but I think it was Dalgreen who pointed out LaRussa is a Dusty clone when it comes to veterans. He did give Haren some key bullpen innings in the playoffs last year, but Haren had considerably more MLB experience. Reyes was pretty much the only K guy out of the pen and Anthony Reyes is the closest shot to replace that. Larussa gave Haren a chance, and Ankiel. He also gave Pujols a shot, pretty much right off the bat. He's also used Brad Thompson alot this year, and will likely have one or two rookies (Reyes and/or Thompson) on the post-season roster. So Larussa isn't as stuck on veterans as you might think.

Then why do Cubs fans cheer when Derrek Lee comes to bat, and not when Pujols comes to bat? Why do they cheer when Prior strikes someone out, but not when Carpenter strikes someone out? Are you all a bunch of hypocrites?

So it's not hypocritical for me to call McGwire a cheat, liar, and horrible human being and yet still cheer Sosa. Cool, glad we got it settled. Basically, you've affirmed fan bias. If a player is loyal to an organization and done other admirable things in the name of the organization and brought enjoyment to its fans, it's entirely ok to look the other way concerning the character of such an individual. However, if a player hasn't exhibited those traits to the team which you are a fan of, it's entirely ok to chide and ridicule such a player for the same traits you turn a blind eye to of your own player. Or, if my child misbehaves, that's just kids being kids; if your child does it, he's a bad kid. I understand completely. "Character" can be judged by much more than simply being accused of using steroids. Just because McGwire is accused of using steroids, that doesn't make him a bad human being. Just because your child, or my child makes a mistake, that doesn't make them "bad kids". You have to evaluate the entire picture. In Sosa's case, he showed alot of arrogance, corked his bat, probably used steroids, walked out on the team, chided them with his boom box, and came across as being an overall jerk. McGwire played the game, praised St. Louis, and slipped off to spend time with his family. I'm fine with him. Is that biased? Maybe. But to a certain extent, that's what being a fan is all about. If you're looking for the perfect player to root for, lotsa' luck. Dude, do YOU even believe half the crud in your own post's here? Slipped off to spend time with family sure sounds like a good excuse huh... Sosa played the game, praised Chicago (even when he was no longer a Cub, see news paper add thanking the City and the fans) and slipped off to do God knows what the last game of the season.....what's the difference? The difference is, if Cubs fans chose to applaud him, I'd be OK with that. He's their guy. I like McGwire, and so do the vast majority of Cardinal fans. If you choose to like Sosa, then so be it. I'm not going to tell you who to applaud.

I don't think it was a "buffer" against anything. McGwire was introduced. If there were going to be boos, then that would have been the appropriate time. I honestly don't think that McGwire gives two shakes if somebody wants to boo him. Heck, he was embarrassed when he left the game, because of the way he was playing. He knows he's not perfect. He's a happy man now. The game doesn't consume him like it does some of you, and it never will. The vast majority of Cardinal fans love McGwire. I know a few who don't, also. I know fans who hate Ozzie Smith. I know fans who hate Larussa. I know fans who rip Pujols every time he has a bad week. We call them "the Whaction". You can't possibly take them seriously. When did McGwire "lie", and how do you know he lied? And what makes you think that every player that's ever played the game hasn't told a lie? Why is it SO hard for you to stomach the fact that the vast majority of Cardinal fans love McGwire? Why can't you just let people decide for themselves who they want to applaud? It's presumptuos of you to think that everybody should hate him for the reasons that you do. Let people decide for themselves........

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2005/news/story?id=2179881 This will really hurt the Cards' playoff chances.

So it's not hypocritical for me to call McGwire a cheat, liar, and horrible human being and yet still cheer Sosa. Cool, glad we got it settled. Basically, you've affirmed fan bias. If a player is loyal to an organization and done other admirable things in the name of the organization and brought enjoyment to its fans, it's entirely ok to look the other way concerning the character of such an individual. However, if a player hasn't exhibited those traits to the team which you are a fan of, it's entirely ok to chide and ridicule such a player for the same traits you turn a blind eye to of your own player. Or, if my child misbehaves, that's just kids being kids; if your child does it, he's a bad kid. I understand completely. "Character" can be judged by much more than simply being accused of using steroids. Just because McGwire is accused of using steroids, that doesn't make him a bad human being. Just because your child, or my child makes a mistake, that doesn't make them "bad kids". You have to evaluate the entire picture. In Sosa's case, he showed alot of arrogance, corked his bat, probably used steroids, walked out on the team, chided them with his boom box, and came across as being an overall jerk. McGwire played the game, praised St. Louis, and slipped off to spend time with his family. I'm fine with him. Is that biased? Maybe. But to a certain extent, that's what being a fan is all about. If you're looking for the perfect player to root for, lotsa' luck.

Fair enough, then. Likewise, if tens of thousands of Cardinal fans want to applaud McGwire, then you shouldn't have a problem with that, either. As Americans, that's their right. It certainly is their right. And if you'll read carefully, I've made little comment on the issue. I do, however, think it is appropriate for others to comment on it. I'm not surprised that Cardinal nation applauded McGwire. Bias is a common factor among sports fans. We tend to like those who play for our teams and ignore their faults, while at the same time chide or ridicule the faults of those who play for rivals. What is rather hypocritical is when Cardinal fans applaud McGwire, yet the same fans held up "Cork" signs when Sammy played in Busch in 2003 and 2004. However, I'm sure you weren't among those. I addressed this issue earlier. Sosa wasn't a Cardinal, wasn't loyal to the Cardinals, didn't speak highly of the Cardinals, didn't play hard for the Cardinals, hasn't donated millions of dollars to charities in St. Louis, and didn't bring the Cardinals years of baseball enjoyment. Therefore, he's not going to be treated like McGwire. Nor should he. That's not hypocritical.

I'd say that's pretty accurate. As a fan, I'd vote for Lee as MVP. :P As a baseball writer, I'd vote for Pujols. Andruw Jones, 3rd place. You'd be nuts not to vote for Lee, as a Cubs fan. He's deserving, even if you're not a Cubs fan. History says that Pujols will probably win, however.

Fair enough, then. Likewise, if tens of thousands of Cardinal fans want to applaud McGwire, then you shouldn't have a problem with that, either. As Americans, that's their right.

I don't consider the "Rivalries" section of this forum to be devoted to the Cubs. This entire web community is devoted to the Cubs. Your assertion that it's none of our business what goes on in Busch Stadium is as ridiculous as my saying its none of your business what we discuss here. My point is that if tens of thousands of Cardinal fans want to applaud one of their own, in their stadium, then why should it be a problem for you? It had nothing to do with the Cubs. Likewise, if you want to discuss the Cubs on a Cubs board, why should it be a problem for me? Answer: It's not. It has nothing to do with me. Mixing and matching is where the problem is........... Cubs fans criticizing Cardinal fans.......... that's different.

I don't consider the "Rivalries" section of this forum to be devoted to the Cubs.

Since you used bold print, I'm convinced that you must be right. :roll: Nice comeback. :P Since you used bold print, I'm convinced that you must be right. :roll: There, that should be better.

I'm debating, because you have a notion that you should be the judge of whom I (and 95% of Cardinal fans) should and should not applaud. I think we're all adults, and can form our own opinions and make our own decisions. Steroids is bad. That doesn't mean that I hate everyone who has ever used steroids, simply based on the fact that they used steroids. If you're going to hate "bad things" in baseball, then you'd better learn to hate MLB and spend ALL of your time in church, because the league, and the world has been rampant with "bad things" since its inception. I try to judge people based on everything that they do, not just one "bad thing". If Cardinal fans want to applaud McGwire for what he did in St. Louis, I dont' see why it's any of your business, quite frankly.

I did not see any evidence whatsoever in this thread supporting your claim (see bolded sentence). As for the rest of your statement about Lee's performance. I agree, to a lesser extent, but the Cubs hitters (and I use the term 'hitters' lightly) batting around of Lee were progressively worse as the season went on, which made it easier to pitch around him. I think that 'feeding him' is probably not the best choice, because it's not like they were throwing batting practice to him. They were throwing at the documented holes in his swing, which HE closed. Lee still had to hit them, and he did. My point is that nobody anticipated Derrek Lee hurting them much when the season started, so they pitched to him. Pujols on the other hand, was considered dangerous from day one, so he was pitched accordingly. Lee's hot start was partially a result of him catching the league by surprise. In the 2nd half, when he was past the point of "surprising" anyone, the league adjusted, and slowed him down just a bit. Pujols wasn't going to "surprise" anybody, so they pitched him carefully all season long.

Since you used bold print, I'm convinced that you must be right. :roll:

So McGwire is a cheater (maybe)? And so are lots and lots and lots and lots of other ball players. So what? So you hate them all? Or you only hate the ones that you know about? Or you only hate the ones that it's convenient for you to hate? Or you only hate the ones that I applaud? If you'd learn to sit back and enjoy the wonderful moments of the game (inluding McGwire in '98), and not be so judgmental about every mistake that every player makes, then you might enjoy it a little more. I'm sure you are without fault, and so it's hard for you to understand that baseball players are human beings who will make mistakes, but that's life.......... McGwire didn't "murder" anybody. You take this thing WAY too seriously. The joy that he brought to St. Louis is immeasurable. Almost all Cardinal fans recognize that. I'm sorry if that offends you. My advice is to get over it. If you want to hate Cardinal fans for loving Mac, then so be it. I'll sleep well, regardless. So with McGwire. When did McGwire say adamently state that he never took steroids? McGwire took the 5th under oath. Sosa lied, and continued to take your money at the ticket gates.. Palmiero lied, and continued to take your money at the ticket gate. Schilling said whatever it was that was convenient for him to say on that particular day (his stance changes hourly). McGwire left the game 4 years ago, and was trying to enjoy a life with his family in California. I don't blame him for refusing to playing a puppet in that congressional circus, like the rest of the panel did.

They both had great years. Derrek Lee won't be the first player to be victimized (if you want to call it that) by playing for a bad team. Giving the MVP award to Pujols isn't as much of a crime as some of you like to think. The fact that he was able to do what he does with players like John Rodriguez, Abraham Nunez, Mark Grudzielanek, and So Taguchi supporting in the lineup for a big chunk of the year is pretty impressive. Pujols made them all better, in my opinion. Pitchers knew from day 1 that Pujols could hurt them, so they pitch around him as much as possible, starting on opening day. Derrek Lee, meanwhile, came out of nowhere, so pitchers kept feeding him for the first 2 months of the season. After the All-Star break, when they started pitching to him the way they pitch to Pujols, Lee wasn't quite as good. There is no "lifetime achievement award", so I don't have a problem with giving Pujols the edge because he does it year after year after year, even if it isn't exactly the intention of the yearly MVP award. That said, it won't bother me at all if Lee wins.

That's not news. McGwire isn't saying anything. He diddn't say anything from the time he retired until the hearings, and he hasn't said anything since. He's a private guy. If that means that he lacks character, then so be it. It's a pretty harsh way to judge a guy, though. Again, I think you HATE the fact that he's not saying anything, because it means that you can't criticize him for what he has to say. So, you choose to criticize him for not saying anything at all. He can't win, and he knows it. Haters will hate him, regardless of what he says or doesn't say. Frankly, I don't think he gives two shakes what folks like you believe. No, I just don't respect people that promise things and then don't come through. But if you want to keep your blinders on, go ahead. And who says that he won't be?

I think you know what the fax has to do with. If he loved the Cardinal organization so much, why did he never speak to them about his retirement, but chose to use ESPN as his vehicle? Yes, there are good people who are Cardinal fans, but there are a bunch of hypocritical homers, too. I guess if Palmeiro and Bonds came to town they'd get a standing ovation, too. A cheat is a cheat is a cheat. Just because one used to wear the birds on the bat doesn't make him a better cheat. Other than just being hypocritical, I don't see how the fans would boo Bonds but not McGwire. I definitely don't see them applauding Palmeiro. I don't like cheaters, period, whether it's baseball, football, track and field, swimming, etc. I guess some don't mind it if it's close to their heart and it's their guy. Palmeiro and Bonds aren't Cardinals, weren't loyal to the Cardinals, didn't speak highly of the Cardinals, didn't play hard for the Cardinals, haven't donated millions of dollars to charities in St. Louis, and didn't bring the Cardinals years of baseball enjoyment. Again, you're completely missing the point. You're extremely narrow-minded if you think that Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, and Giambi are the only "cheaters" to ever play the game. Again, you choose to target the players who are easy targets, and completely ignore everyone else. If you only knew..............

That's not news. McGwire isn't saying anything. He diddn't say anything from the time he retired until the hearings, and he hasn't said anything since. He's a private guy. If that means that he lacks character, then so be it. It's a pretty harsh way to judge a guy, though. Again, I think you HATE the fact that he's not saying anything, because it means that you can't criticize him for what he has to say. So, you choose to criticize him for not saying anything at all. He can't win, and he knows it. Haters will hate him, regardless of what he says or doesn't say. Frankly, I don't think he gives two shakes what folks like you believe. "I love the way he's managed to stay away," says Tino Martinez, McGwire's replacement at first base. "That's the way it should be done. Just go off and be who you want to be. It's an inspiration. It's a pure thing. He didn't play the game for the fanfare, and he didn't leave the game looking for it."

Tino wasn't a "true" Cardinal. So what? Was Kerry Robinson? Was Placido Polanco? Tino was brought over because he was a Yankee and Cardinal fans and GM/manager thought that would automatically mean a World Series appearance, and it didn't. McGwire did speak highly of the city and the fans. But he also left for California the next day the Cardinal season was over, and he faxed his retirement to ESPN --- says a lot for how he felt about the organization. Your last paragraph, all I have to say is ....... :scratch: Kerry Robinson was a whiner. Cardinal fans aren't crazy about that. Polanco played hard, and never complained. Cardinal fans would welcome him back in a heartbeat. All Tino talked about while wearing the Cardinal uniform was how much he missed the Yankees. Cardinal fans didn't take kindly to that. I'm not sure what you're having trouble understanding. Loyalty goes both ways in St. Louis. McGwire lives in California. I have no problem with that. When he played for the team, he was a Cardinal spokesman (almost single-handedly talked Edmonds into coming to town, etc.), and raved about the Cardinals organization and fans. I'm not sure what the fax has to do with anything. Thankfully, Mac left $15 mil on the table for the Cards to play with. He didn't have to.

No way man. Listen to Stuart Scott. Good Gawd.

I agree. Likewise, I wouldn't have a problem with Lee winning. He seems like a good guy, and has had a terrific season. As long as Andruw doesn't win, I'm cool with the other two guys.

I've made my point in THIS thread. No need for another one. Why start a thread about other players that you think are "crooked"? That's exactly my point........... you don't KNOW which ones are and aren't. You simply want to look at the surface of the game, and seperate good from bad. That's a simple-minded way of observing the game, in my opinion. Tino Martinez was booed because he never considered himself a "true" Cardinal, even when he played for the team. He alienated himself from teh fans, both on and off the field. Sosa was a first-class jerk, right up until he walked out on the team in his last game with the Cubs. McGwire spoke highly of the organization, the fans, the city, etc. Therefore, the fans return the love. He played hard, played with enthusiasm and emotion, and gave alot back to the city. MOST Cardinal fans recognize that. If you're booing and cheering players simply based on the statistics, and how "you think" they attained the statistics, then you're not a baseball fan...... you're a mathematician.

OK. So that's what you use to determine that the MVP race "isn't that close"? Seems like a pretty narrow standard.