K-Town

It's funny, they say that the only stat we care about is ERA, but ignore VORP, RS, and EXP W/L. We've provide them some additonal stats, but they simply ignore it. And I'll say this for the last time. My case against Carpenter has nothing to do with his being a Cardinal. I hate the Astros, including Clemens, as much as I do the Cardinals. Ask my nephew how much I laughed at Clemens's shelling in the 2004 ASG. I hate the man, but I've got to give him his due. He's been a better pitcher than Carpenter this year, and therefore, should win the Cy Young. The ERA dictates all of those other numbers. It's like saying "I'm not eating sugar, I'm eating cake". ERA doesn't dictate those numbers, but it is part of the formula. Those numbers include many other facets, including your IP barometer. It's why Chad Cordero doesn't have as high a VORP than Clemens or Cordero. It's a cumlative stat. I'm sorry you can't understand that. I understand it perfectly. Clemens has a better VORP than Lidge. In fact, most of you think that Clemens is "the best" pitcher in baseball. Therefore, wouldn't you want Clemens pitching the 7th, 8th & 9th innings, instead of Lidge? Carpenter has a better VORP than Isringhausen. Therefore, the fact that Carpenter is pitching the 8th & 9th innings is superb. Or, do we just want the best VORP pitcher in the game when it fits YOUR agenda?

It's funny, they say that the only stat we care about is ERA, but ignore VORP, RS, and EXP W/L. We've provide them some additonal stats, but they simply ignore it. And I'll say this for the last time. My case against Carpenter has nothing to do with his being a Cardinal. I hate the Astros, including Clemens, as much as I do the Cardinals. Ask my nephew how much I laughed at Clemens's shelling in the 2004 ASG. I hate the man, but I've got to give him his due. He's been a better pitcher than Carpenter this year, and therefore, should win the Cy Young. The ERA dictates all of those other numbers. It's like saying "I'm not eating sugar, I'm eating cake". Hmmm.... the number of runs you allow effects how good of a pitcher you are? Never thought of that one... So Chad Cordero is your man? And I thought it was Roger Clemens.

It's funny, they say that the only stat we care about is ERA, but ignore VORP, RS, and EXP W/L. We've provide them some additonal stats, but they simply ignore it. And I'll say this for the last time. My case against Carpenter has nothing to do with his being a Cardinal. I hate the Astros, including Clemens, as much as I do the Cardinals. Ask my nephew how much I laughed at Clemens's shelling in the 2004 ASG. I hate the man, but I've got to give him his due. He's been a better pitcher than Carpenter this year, and therefore, should win the Cy Young. The ERA dictates all of those other numbers. It's like saying "I'm not eating sugar, I'm eating cake".

I don't recall anyone calling you names. Someone called your post ignorant I believe, but personal attacks are not allowed here. Apparently they are.

If the Prior comment was offensive, then you guys must put alot of value in a pitcher not being able to go deep into a game (because that's all I said about Prior). You guys are making a bigger deal out of it than I am.

There's no motive...then why did I start an AL Cy thread as well? I started the thread on a CUBS message board!!! If I really wanted to bait Cardinal fans, wouldn't I have started this on Cards Talk or the SportsCartel or BirdsontheBat? You really have some great insights into my motives...:roll: Want to tell me what I'm going to have for lunch while you're at it? Interestingly enough, you started the AL thread under "Baseball Discussion", and the NL thread under "Rivalries". Why didn't you start the thread on a Cardinal board? Because Cubs fans like yourself would be banned for calling Cardinal fans names on those boards, but it's perfectly acceptable here. Enjoy your lunch, whatever it turns out to be. I started it in rivalries because the two main contenders for the award are on rivals of the Cubs. I'd have done the same if Sheets and Oliver Perez were involved. I started the AL thread where it is, because it doesn't really concern our rivals unless you think Garland has a chance, which I don't. I've posted on a number of Cardinal boards and I've yet to be banned. And while you may act like a martyr here, I've been treated worse on CardsTalk for much less. Much of the treatment you've received here you've brought on yourself. I've brought it on myself by daring to disagree with you. So be it. I made one comment about Prior (which wasn't the least bit offensive), and broke all of your hearts, and yet I'M a martyr?

The reason Clemens leads the VORP is because of his ERA though, right? It could be that his ERA is nearly a run better than Carpenter, yes. It's not nearly a run better.

You're awfully sensitive.

The reason Clemens leads the VORP is because of his ERA though, right?

There's no motive...then why did I start an AL Cy thread as well? I started the thread on a CUBS message board!!! If I really wanted to bait Cardinal fans, wouldn't I have started this on Cards Talk or the SportsCartel or BirdsontheBat? You really have some great insights into my motives...:roll: Want to tell me what I'm going to have for lunch while you're at it? Interestingly enough, you started the AL thread under "Baseball Discussion", and the NL thread under "Rivalries". Why didn't you start the thread on a Cardinal board? Because Cubs fans like yourself would be banned for calling Cardinal fans names on those boards, but it's perfectly acceptable here. Enjoy your lunch, whatever it turns out to be.

Don't tell me to settle down, I'm actually quite calm. You've been doing this ever since you got here, and as you can see, I'm not the only one that's noticed. You'll make your little cheap shot here and there, and then try to cover it up with comments like, "oh, but I'd love to have Prior on my team." I probably have a hundred posts in this thread, and you've found 2 that were "offensive" (I actually don't think that the Prior comment was offensive at all, but maybe some of you are more sensitive than I had figured). I'm not trying to cover up ANYTHING. There's an edit mode here. If I wanted to cover up, I'd use it.

Fight the good fight, Amy. I've done my best, but you'll never get past the ERA thing. :) How about these stats? VORP- Clemens: 80.1 Carpenter: 73.9 Pitchers EXP W/L Carpenter: 16-7 Clemens: 15-4 Those two stats add a completely different perspective. Again, aren't those stats pretty much directly related to ERA? Or not?

You're more of an expert than I am, so I'll just pose the question: Wouldn't "runs saved" be pretty much directly related to ERA? Or not? Geez...... get over the Prior thing. Prior's awesome. Instead of dealing with the point that I made (that it would be nice if Prior could go deeper into games), you just want to get defensive. I'll use Marquis as an example, if it makes you feel better. For most of this year, he's had no clue how to get into the later innings of a game, and it frustrates the heck out of me. He's typically thrown 100 pitches by the end of the 5th or 6th inning, and then implodes. I'd like to grab him by the throat and say "throw strikes...... let your team help you, for crying out loud!!". The comment about the "Cubs and wins" was wrong. Plain and simple. I'm a Cardinal fan, and I'm used to bantering with Cubs fans (including my son, who is a huge Cubs fan). This was the wrong forum for it. Like I said, I could have done an edit and tried to hide from it, but I own the fact that I said it. I'm not sure what else you want. I made a mistake by posting it here, as harmless as my intentions were. Frankly, YOU laid the bait when you started this thread, Vance. You'll never fess up, but there's really no other motive for you to start the thread, considering it's such a "no contest".

Fight the good fight, Amy. I've done my best, but you'll never get past the ERA thing. :) Not when Clemens' ERA is three quarters of a run better while seemingly every other category (minus wins and IP) is either a draw, or favors Clemens. Then no, you won't get past the ERA thing. I honestly believe that Carpenter is going to win the Cy Young. But this isn't a discussion on who will win it, it's a discussion on who should win it. And there are 32 pages of statistics proving that Clemens is having the better year (minus Carpenter's innings pitched and K Town's conspiracy theories on why Clemens doesn't throw complete games) K-Town: Yes, you are trying to bait people here by saying that. It's like your Prior comment from yesterday. There was absolutely no reason to say it other than to try and get people riled up here, but you said it anyway. Then when you were called on it, you backed down. But back to your question: If the ERA gap is only .3 by the end of the year (that is if Clemens goes up to 1.8 or 1.9 while Carp drops to 2.1), then Carp will probably deserve the award. But there is a huge difference between a .3 gap, and a .75 gap. Settle down, CubbieBlue. The Prior comment was in no way meant to be offensive. Ask any Cardinal fan, and he'll tell you that he (or she, in Amy's case) would LOVE to have Prior. I only used him, because I thought it would be an example that the folks here could relate to. Wouldn't it be great if Prior could pitch deeper into games? Especially with the Cubs' bullpen struggling. That's all I was saying. Don't be so defensive. The difference in ERA is .71. When this thread started 3 weeks ago, the difference was .93. So it's dropped almost a quarter of a run in just 3 weeks. I don't disagree that there's a big difference between a .3 gap, and a .75 gap. That's why I asked the question. I guess we'll see what happens.

Fight the good fight, Amy. I've done my best, but you'll never get past the ERA thing. :)

I'm just curious, at what point (if any) would any of you consider Carpenter's ERA to be close enough to Clemens, to consider Carpenter for the Cy Young. For instance, if Carpenter goes 23-4, with a 2.1 ERA, and Clemens goes 12-6, with a 1.7 or 1.8 ERA, do you still lean toward Clemens? Is it strictly the best ERA that you're going to use? I'm not trying to bait anybody into anything, I'm just curious.

Well, they'll certainly have their hands full. I'm not counting on ANYTHING, that's for sure. I'm hoping that they can find a way to get the job done.

1) I realize that the majority of Cards fans feel that Pujols has been "robbed" the last couple of years. I disagree. What Bonds did was amazing, and the MVP race was no-contest in his favor, as far as I'm concerned. The MVP isn't "just" about stats, but Bonds was so far and away better than everybody else that it became an easy choice, playoffs or no playoffs. 2) I wouldn't dismiss Lee this year AT ALL. He's a worthy candidate. Andruw Jones isn't in the same category as Pujols & Lee when it comes to Win Shares and OPS. A case could be made that Giles and Furcal are as important to the Braves and Andruw is this year.

Meaningless is an excellent word for that. Yep, Carpenter walks fewer guys while K'ing the same amount. Clemens gives up fewer HR. Then again, this is new information that wasn't presented less than 10-15 posts ago. And after all these pages, the cumulative stats still favor Clemens despite his lack of innings and your repeated doggedness to this point. And, as was brought up 5 pages ago, this is a discussion over who DESERVES the award, not who ultimately will receive it, deserving or not. I'm not about to re-read the entire thread, but I can virtually guarantee that everyone was saying that Clemens should, not will win the Cy. The guy who gets the most votes "should" win, because that's how the system is set up. Fortunately for Carpenter, this thing won't be decided on a Cubs' forum. Fortunately for Clemens, it won't be decided on a Cardinals' forum.

Your words, not mine. Your martyrdom is charming. And you know what's really funny. Neither your opinion or mine makes any difference. The writers will determine who deserves the Cy Young Award, and I doubt if they'll even CONSIDER your oh-so-important information, or my "meaningless" stats.

Great. They hire pitchers for the 6th & 7th, too. So why not just expect 4 or 5 innings from our starters? In fact, there are 6 relievers in the bullpen, so why not just use the starter for 3 innings, and let everyone else go 1 inning each? It's not an "obsession", but Carpenter has saved the bullpen some innings this year, and it's made them more effective.

Well, considering that even you've called yourself a homer in this thread on many occasions, yes, you are a homer. Yeah, Clemens pulled himself out of a game... AFTER 8 SHUTOUT INNINGS. You keep forgetting to mention that fact. And no, you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA why Garner pulls Clemens. You have your opinion of why he does. Stop trying to pass that off as fact. Your arguments here aren't very valid. You back nothing up with stats. You base all of this Clemens stuff on your OPINION. And the worst part is that you're really starting to get on many of the regular poster's nerves. If you want to talk about this race, that's fine. But don't pull stuff out of the air. At least have some reasonable information to back it up. I'm a "homer", to some extent. I think we all are, as fans. But I think that this part of your statement has been proven wrong on at least a couple of occasions: and he won't listen to anyone else's rational opinion as long as a Cardinal is involved in the race for the award. You want "reasonable stuff"? You mean like the 9 extra "meaningless" wins? You mean like the K/BB ratio? You mean like the fact that Carpenter will have pitched the equivalent of 4 extra games over Clemens this year? You mean the precedent that's been set by the voters over and over again that tells me that Carpenter is a reasonable candidate for the Cy Young Award. All of those things are FACTS, not "my opinions". As far as my arguments not being "valid", I wasn't award that you were the God of Validity. I'll check in with you from now on. Yes, Clemens went 8 innings before pulling himself out. Last I checked, a game doesn't end after 8 (Carpenter knows it, Clemens apparently hasn't figured that out yet).

And you know all of this for a fact? Wow, I didn't know they let Cardinal fans into the Astros dugout. CPATTERSON20: This argument is getting out of hand. It's obvious this guy won't listen to stats. He'd rather make half baked accusations about Clemens being out of gas all the time, or bring up the fact that Clemens pulled himself with a bad back a few weeks ago... but fail to mention that it was after his 8th shutout inning that day. He's a homer, and he won't listen to anyone else's rational opinion as long as a Cardinal is involved in the race for the award. Really? Have you read the MVP thread? Show me my "homerism" there. Have you read the World Series thread? Where's my homerism there? I'm not making "half baked" accusations. Clemens throws more pitches, in fewer innings, than Carpenter. That's a fact. And I don't need to be in the Astros' dugout to know what's going on. I'm smart enough to know that Garner isn't going to send a 43-year old pitcher back to the mound when he's thrown over 100 pitches. It's also a fact that Clemens pulled himself out of 2 games in the last month.

It wasn't meant as a cheap shot. I'd take Prior on my staff in a HEARTBEAT. He's a great pitcher. But can't you admit that it's frustrating that he hasn't learned how to go deeper into games?

No. Most games he left because his pitch count was too high to realistically expect him to continue. He's inefficient. He has to work too hard to get through 6 or 7 innings, so he's not there for his team in innings 8 and 9 (kinda like Mark Prior).