K-Town

Lots of good, fair questions. The Cy Young discussion, I won't get into, because I'm not entirely convinced that Carpenter deserves it, anymore. I hope he wins it, but he pretty much crawled to the finish line. Pujols was the offensive leader, and really the only consistent offensive threat, on a team that was 2nd in the NL in runs scored. He was clearly the offensive leader of the team. Let me just re-emphasize that I won't be disgusted if Lee wins the MVP. Andruw Jones, on the other hand...........

That's the point, if you start playing the "if" game, then everything changes. Who knows how well Lee would have hit in the Cards' lineup, or how well Pujols would have hit in the Cubs' lineup. In general, I agree with you, UK. But when the numbers are relatively close, then I think you have to lean to the player who led his team to the playoffs, and the best record in baseball. There IS value in that. It's not Lee's fault, but maybe someday the roles will be reversed, and Lee will benefit from playing for a winning team. "Value" isn't simply "value". It's not cut & dry. A gallon of ice cream doesn't hold much value to an Eskimo, but a kid might spend a month's worth of allowance for it. A pair of snow boots is worth more to an Eskimo than they are to a kid in southern California. Why does a gallon of gas cost $2.50 in Missouri, but $3.10 in Chicago? It's the exact same gas. Shouldn't the value be exactly the same? The context of everything DOES change it's value. That's not a new concept. A great baseball player isn't as valuable to a non-contender as it is to a team trying to position themselves for the playoffs.

Injuries happen to all teams, so those don't count. Player stupidity or psychology isn't bad luck either. Sorry, not feeling you here. I'm not sure what you want, then. Tarps rolling over players? Horrible umpiring calls? An error isn't "bad luck". It's bad play. If that's what you're looking for, then look no further than the Cards' bats going south for 4 games against the Red Sox last year.

I'm not sure if anybody even outside of Chicago wants them to win. I'm a Cardinal fan, and I'm rooting for the Red Sox.

You mean like Carpenter being injured right before the playoffs last year? Or Rolen missing the playoffs for them a couple of years ago? Or Rolen & Reyes missing the playoffs this year? Or Suppan falling asleep on the bases in last year's World Series? Or Ankiel falling off a cliff in the playoffs a few years ago? I could go on and on and on........

Very good then. Then, personally I don't have a problem with your stance on McGwire. My problem comes when people allow fan bias to be something that goes beyond baseball. I'm not the biggest of hecklers, but I will do my share. On the other hand, I'm quite open about why I do it and that my cheering of or dislike of other players usually is tied to my fan bias. I'd never say I hate McGwire for steroids unless I'm willing to make the same statement against Sosa or others. But to show the reverse of my point: I was in St. Louis two summers ago and not during the Cubs-Cardinals series. I went to a Marlins-Cardinals game and during the game I had a conversation with a guy who learned I was a Cub fan. He seemed friendly enough and we talked for a good portion of the game. He told me that he "hated" Sosa and loved to heckle him when the Cards played the Cubs, but not because he was a Cub, but because you just knew he did steroids...yada yada yada. After he finished his rant on the game in general and Sosa's sins in particular, I responded with then you must feel the same way about McGwire. At first I got a blank stare...then a changing of the subject...and then later about how McGwire was "different" from Sosa. That is the epitome of fan bias. I'd have no problem if he said I "hate" Sosa because he's a Cub, but to tie the other to it when looking the other way about one of your own, is ignorant fan bias in a nutshell. Does it exist on all sides of the fence? Yes. Good post. Honestly, any dislike that I have for ANY Cubs is probably directly related to the fact that they're Cubs, as you explained. Sosa's "cheating" hardly ever crossed my mind. I had some fun with the whole "cork" thing, but who didn't? I don't think about the "cheating" aspect of that nearly as much as I think about the "stupid" aspect of him doing it.

Guilty. I'm not even sure why, actually. When he first came into the league, I thought he was going to be an "electric" player. It hasn't panned out that way. I've heard him interviewed a few times, and he seems to have a really good, positive attitude. It's a shame that he's not a very good ball player.

Can I assume, then, by your statements that if you attended Cubs-Cardinal games in previous years that you made no judgements toward Sosa as well, and limited your heckling or opinions of him to the fact he was a Cub and no different than you would have heckled or expressed opinion of any Cub superstar player? I conclude this sense you say you don't have time to "judge" on issues as trivial as baseball. I've never heckled Sosa. I playfully dislike the Cubs simply because the rivalry is fun. I'm not a fan of Sosa, but certainly wouldn't describe him as "intolerable". I'm indifferent about most Cubs players. I really like Kerry Wood, Derrek Lee, Corey Patterson, Ryan Dempster. They seem to have a cool attitude. But I don't spend much negative energy on the Cubs, so I'm certainly not going to spend much negativity on former Cardinals.

That's a fine theory. The problem is that the only difference between Mac & Sosa and some of the guys that you openly admire is that Sosa & Mac got "caught" (not Mac, really...... but the perception is that he did). Basically, you're either naive enough to think that others aren't cheating, or you're OK with it as long as they don't get "busted". So, just because others do it, is it OK? I mean, you keep bring it up - 'others'. Who cares about 'others'. We're not talking about 'others', we're talking about McGwire. It's just like that weak-ass argument when McGwire was on Andro - it's legal. Newsflash - Just because something is 'legal' doesn't make it the right thing to do. McGwire was a cheater. Proof? No. But it is very difficult to see it any other way given the preponderance of circumstantial evidence, coupled with the weak testimony given to Congress. Whether or not Sosa, Bonds, Canseco or 50% of the league were on 'roids doesn't make it any more acceptable or tolerable for McGwire. To me, it's not "intolerable". Although McGwire has been compared to murderers and rapists in this very thread, the truth is that he didn't kill anybody, isn't a terrorist, isn't responsible for hurricane Katrina. What you perceive him of being guilty of his adding mass to his body through an unsafe method (and he has admitted to Congress that it's bad, and kids shouldn't do it). IF he's guilty of that, then I certainly don't condone it, but it's also not "intolerable". Heck, I've forgiven people for things WAY worse than that. Using unsafe methods to add mass to his body doesn't change the fact that he seems like a heck of a guy, who has done countless charitable things, and always had good intentions of bringing enjoyable moments to the city of St. Louis. He's not a perfect human being. Not even close. But who is? I don't have much time time for hating and judging, and whatever energy I reserve for those emotions is going to be directed toward issues far more important than baseball.

that and there's nothing else to do in Iowa :P Hey.........hey, hey.........watch that kind of talk :wink: Well there sure isn't much to do in your neck of the woods, I must admit. :P Being very serious here. There is more to do within 5 blocks of my house in Chicago than there was to do in the entire state of Iowa. It's a good place to raise kids, but that's about it. "Raising kids" is pretty substantial, probably more substantial than ANYTHING that's within 5 blocks of your house. Not to be argumentative, but what can you do within 5 blocks of your house that we can't do in Iowa?

That's a fine theory. The problem is that the only difference between Mac & Sosa and some of the guys that you openly admire is that Sosa & Mac got "caught" (not Mac, really...... but the perception is that he did). Basically, you're either naive enough to think that others aren't cheating, or you're OK with it as long as they don't get "busted". So it's more than perception on Sosa? It's the cork littering the infield at Wrigley Field. That's not steroids, so there's a perception that Big Mac corked his bat? I didn't say anything about steroids. We're talking about "cheating". Sosa got caught cheating, and there's a perception that Mac got caught cheating.

That's a fine theory. The problem is that the only difference between Mac & Sosa and some of the guys that you openly admire is that Sosa & Mac got "caught" (not Mac, really...... but the perception is that he did). Basically, you're either naive enough to think that others aren't cheating, or you're OK with it as long as they don't get "busted". So it's more than perception on Sosa? It's the cork littering the infield at Wrigley Field.

You went to alot of trouble for nothing, in my opinion. The OPS+ numbers are so unbalanced in favor of McGwire that we don't really need to look at much else. McGwire was a gold-glove first baseman, so it's silly to say that he was "one dimensional". I don't take McGwire & baseball seriously enough to be "seriously conflicted" by any of it. I enjoyed the run that McGwire had, and he seems like a good guy. That's pretty much the way I look at it.

That's a fine theory. The problem is that the only difference between Mac & Sosa and some of the guys that you openly admire is that Sosa & Mac got "caught" (not Mac, really...... but the perception is that he did). Basically, you're either naive enough to think that others aren't cheating, or you're OK with it as long as they don't get "busted".

I agree. Cardinal fans would probably react the same as Cubs fans. Likewise, Cub fans would probably react the same way to McGwire as Cardinal fans do and did.

There's an organization called "The Faction" whose only goal is to get Jocketty and Larussa out of town. They actually spend money out of their own pockets to fly "Fire Larussa" banners over Busch Stadium, and other silly campaign projects. So yeah, there's plenty of opposition among the "Cardinal faithful". As for the media not questioning him......... well, when you've got a team winning 100 games two years running, and competing in the playoffs almost every single year, it's hard to remember the "bad times". Believe me, if the team goes south, the media will be all over him (see Mike Martz / Rams).

:? :?: Your original post on the matter indicated that YOU think that Cardinal fans are "different". I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect you to understand Cardinal fans reacting to McGwire, because you're not a Cardinal fan, and you've never experienced one of "your guys" accomplishing a feat like that. 512 career home runs and two consecutive MVPs (all in a Cubs uniform) by Ernie Banks is a much greater feat than one steroid-induced 70 home run season by McGwire. Ernie Banks was a terrific player. You should be proud of him.

:? :?: Your original post on the matter indicated that YOU think that Cardinal fans are "different". I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect you to understand Cardinal fans reacting to McGwire, because you're not a Cardinal fan, and you've never experienced one of "your guys" accomplishing a feat like that. Maybe not, but since Mac is no longer the single season leader in HR, Sosa's acheivements are more historically significant. He had a better season in 1998 than Mac, has more career HR, is the only player in history with three 60 HR seasons, and more career RBI. In their primes, Sosa was by far the better player. So while McGwire held the record for a couple years, it is a real stretch to say we don't understand. McGwire had a 217 OPS+ in '98 Sosa had a 160 OPS+ in '98 McGwire had a career 163 OPS+ Sosa has a career 131 OPS+ McGwire had a far better year than Sosa in '98, and a far better career. But that's not the point, anyway. What I was saying is that you can't understand how it feels when "your guy" breaks a record as sacred as the one that Roger Maris held for 37 years.

:? :?: Your original post on the matter indicated that YOU think that Cardinal fans are "different". I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect you to understand Cardinal fans reacting to McGwire, because you're not a Cardinal fan, and you've never experienced one of "your guys" accomplishing a feat like that. Quick question - Who was the first ML player to ever hit 66 homers in a single season? Answer - Sammy Sosa. He reached 66 before McGwire in 1998. Sammy, I suppose, was one of 'my guys'. However, he was never one of my favourites because of his me-first, showboating style. Plus, like I wrote before, for me, it's more about the team/game, than a given player. That was a strange, surreal evening at Busch in September 1998. Maybe Cardinal fans are different - they sure were different that night, and continue to revere McGwire in an idyllic way. Yup, Sosa reached 66 before McGwire did. Sosa broke a record that was about 2 days old. McGwire broke a record that was 37 years old. You and I both know that what McGwire did was historically significant. If you want to pretend that it wasn't, for the sake of making your case, knock yourself out. I agree, the game is more about the team than the individual. The celebration for McGwire in '98 paled in comparison to the World Series celebration in '82 (and yes, the Cards were on the front page of all of the papers in '82). Cardinal fans don't revere McGwire in an idyllic way. They stood and applauded when he was introduced. They appreciate what he did for the city, while he was here. Again, if fans want to enjoy a moment of fond memories for a few minutes before returning to the world full of tragedy, I say more power to 'em.

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Not really. The Pads were going to be 3 and out anyway. :lol:

The players think it's the Cardinal fans (according to a Sporting News survey a couple of years ago). The Cardinals got like 50% of the player votes. 2nd place wasn't even that close. Red Sox fans are truly serious about their team, though. Maybe Cardinal fans are just the "friendliest", or something. I'm not sure. Or maybe just the most blindly loyal Possibly. I guess you'd have to ask the players what they mean by "best".

:? :?: Your original post on the matter indicated that YOU think that Cardinal fans are "different". I'm just saying that I wouldn't expect you to understand Cardinal fans reacting to McGwire, because you're not a Cardinal fan, and you've never experienced one of "your guys" accomplishing a feat like that.

I wouldn't argue with you, probably. I went to a Cubs/Reds game in Cincy. A Red Sox fan was waiting in line with us outside the stadium, and struck up a conversation with us. He was in town, on business, and wanted to see Great American Ballpark, which he had never seen before. It was pretty fascinating to talk baseball with him. Interesting guy. Oddly enough, another fan showed up in a Yankee hat, and there was almost a Red Sox / Yankees riot at a Cubs/Reds game. :lol: Anyway, I don't have much experience with Red Sox fans, but if this guy was any indication, then they're definitely a different breed.

The players think it's the Cardinal fans (according to a Sporting News survey a couple of years ago). The Cardinals got like 50% of the player votes. 2nd place wasn't even that close. Red Sox fans are truly serious about their team, though. Maybe Cardinal fans are just the "friendliest", or something. I'm not sure.