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But what was Illinois getting penalties for? Facemasks, Roughing the punters, Interfering with punt returner, Late hit out of bounds. Its not like the refs were calling some holdings and things like that against Illinois and not Michigan. Was there some facemasks or late hits that Michigan did that didnt get called? I am sure Michigan could have been called for holding on just about every play. The same could be said for Illinois though. So how was the game called any different for Illinois than Michigan? Anyway, I dont think it was homecoming. I did say that Illinois is young and may grow out of these things. That though was what us MSU fans were saying about MSU for the entire time Smith was there. I think Illinois has a heck of a future. The same could have been said about MSU a couple of years ago. I hope that Illinois doesnt fall into that trap.

If they and OK win out, its sets up a pretty interesting Big 12 title game.

I watched the end of it. What I didnt understand is the announcers said if it was an incomplete pass the time would have expired. What is the difference between incomplete pass and TD? Either way the clock stops.

Welcome to the Michigan "Special" teams unit. This walk-on kid Lopata looks decent but he's only been kicking for a couple games now. Before him I would have been scared to attempt an XP, let alone a 39 yard field goal. As for the officiating, I have no doubt a lot of you are right about the refs not calling holding on Michigan when they did hold. I also have no doubt that Illinois held quite a bit but was never called for it. I don't remember a single holding call on either side. It's possible one team held more than the other, but it's really impossible to say without studying the game film. I do know that most of the "big" calls the refs made appeared to be the right one. The late hit was close but he looked to be out to me. Personally I'd rather late hits have to be very very blatant to be called, but they always call that play the way it happened in the game tonight. Problem was Michigan wasnt even trying to hide their holding, it was so blatantly obvious, and still wouldnt get a penalty Michigans best player is out, There starting QB misses about 1/3 of the game. They turn the ball over twice in Illinois territory. And you are complaining about referees. You have got to be kidding me. There wasnt one call that was even questionable. Heck the one that was the most questionable was early in the game when Michigan got a fg. The 3rd down play was PI in the end zone against ILL that wasnt called. As for the holding, I am sure if we were to review the tape plenty of holdings could be found on each side of everygame. Anyway, I just got home from the game and I had a observation that I wanted to make about Zook and the Illini. As a Michigan St fan, Illinois kind of reminds me of MSU under JLSmith. They have a lot going for them, but they play with too much emotion. They need to temper themselves some and make solid plays everygame. Not get so up and down with the circumstances of the game. I know a lot of us might not like it but Ohio St and Michigan seem to never get rattled, or make a bunch of mistakes because things arent going there way. I know Illinois is a young team. Maybe that is why they are like this. Zook seems pretty emotional though. Hopefully this isnt going to be an issue with Illinois.

Because of his SLG? I've got to disagree. I'll tell you what, you take 05 Freel (.271/ .371..371) and I will take 07 Soriano (.299/.337/.560) as my lead off hitter. Which team will score more runs? Soriano's obviously... So would 30 points of OBP be worth 200 points of slugging? Of course not. I agree with your arguement here. Wouldnt Soriano and his high Slugging Percentage be better hitting behind DLee and his .400 OBP though?

I am out of town this week. I was watching Mike and Mike on ESPN 2 this morning. Did they say that Gameday was going to be in Champaign this week?

But that doesnt change the fact that Dusty has never had a player quite like Dunn. I understand he has favored guys like Simon. Still what would he do if he had a Dunn type on his team has never really been shown before. I think the worse thing that will happen is Dusty will bat him 6th or something like that. The one I think that is really going to be interesting is Scott Hattieberg (Base Clogging Vet) and Joey Votto (base clogging rookie) Don't worry; they have the free-swinging nonclogger Jorge Cantu to solve that little problem. Reds fans will tear their hair out as Votto rots on the bench. I forgot about him. This I think there is proof of how Dusty will handle the situation.

But that doesnt change the fact that Dusty has never had a player quite like Dunn. I understand he has favored guys like Simon. Still what would he do if he had a Dunn type on his team has never really been shown before. I think the worse thing that will happen is Dusty will bat him 6th or something like that. The one I think that is really going to be interesting is Scott Hattieberg (Base Clogging Vet) and Joey Votto (base clogging rookie)

Bonds didn't K at record setting #s, and he didn't have a low BA. That's 2 strikes for Dusty. Have to agree, the strikeouts and low BA will drive Dusty crazy, not to mention the lack of speed. Dusty has a history of liking awful players who bring nothing to the table other than a respectable BA, a low K rate, and average or better speed. That stuff is very very important to Dusty. Bonds is a slow baserunner, but otherwise his offense has no weaknesses. Who else can we use as an example to how Dusty will handle Dunn? Mark Bellhorn? I agree Dusty screwed up that situation, but Bellhorn was no Dunn. Also maybe Karros over Choi or Grudz over Walker. Still not very good comparisons. Like I said originally, I think we are making assumptions about how Dusty will handle this situation with very little evidence.

I dont agree with all of the conclusions. I think LoK has done a solid job of explaining how he got there. I think his list makes for interesting discussion.

Not necessarily. It sounds like Meph weighted each player's contributions according to his context. Rather than directly comparing baseball performance, Meph is trying to compare each player's value to his specific team. I don't know that I care for the approach, personally, but I would love to know more about the weighting algorithm, if Meph has a link or the inclination to write about it. I kind of agree. couldnt you just go by who had the most runs produced in close situations. Down by 2 through up by 1. In theory a player who is putting up good numbers on a team that has bad offense/good pitching is pretty much doing the same thing. Its saying that the runs they are producing are more important based on their teammates around them.

Ok so Lee is a +15 over a average 1b Granderson is a +15 over a average CF. This is starting to come together for me. Though I agree with XFactor in that defense at 1b is probably generally undervalued. I still have a hard time seeing that Lee's defense at 1b makes him as valuable of a player as Granderson. I am going to go to bed now. If you could come up with anything to justify this I would be more than welcome to try and understand.

So basically Lee was a +20 defensively and Granderson was a +15.

Ok I will use another example than. Curtis Granderson. Lee and Granderson are pretty equal offensively. Defensively though Granderson would have to be much more valuable than Lee.

So its just a guess?

I think we are making assumptions about Dusty. The only player that I can think of that Dusty has managed that is even close to being similar to Dunn is Bonds. Except Bonds didnt KO nearly as much. I think it may be unfair to say how Dusty will manage Dunn at this point.

How do you come up with -10 to -15

How much of a brick?

Just for kicks, explain how DLee is higher than Chipper Jones? I just pulled someone out random that I probably would say had a better year than Lee.

I think the major improvement that Michigan has made is offensively. Against Oregon they couldnt stay on the field. Now that Henne is healthy and playing better they have really started to become the offensive team that everyone thought they were going to be. I think the real question is can Illinois stop Michigans offense? Somehow I think its going to be a great game. Illinois is better than they played last week, Sat night game at home, Big Sellout(Even though in the past Michigan has had up to 20,000 fans there). I think this one is going to be pretty good.

Should I ask?

8.69 Jake Peavy 8.46 Albert Pujols 8.28 Magglio Ordonez 8.06 Matt Holliday 7.83 Alex Rodriguez 7.49 David Wright 7.40 Grady Sizemore 7.20 Hanley Ramirez 7.06 Tim Hudson 7.00 Brad Penny 6.88 Chase Utley 6.61 Derrek Lee 6.51 David Ortiz 6.48 Prince Fielder 6.32 Vladimir Guerrero 6.27 C.c. Sabathia 6.12 Jimmy Rollins 5.99 Roy Halladay 5.98 Chipper Jones 5.96 Alfonso Soriano 5.92 Josh Beckett 5.90 Johan Santana 5.84 John Smoltz 5.82 Miguel Cabrera 5.81 Carlos Pena 5.79 Edgar Renteria 5.72 Fausto Carmona 5.70 Aramis Ramirez 5.54 Carlos Beltran Is this VORP?

I think to say the DLee is the 12th most valuable player in baseball is complete homerism. Sorry, your probably going to have to show me the numbers. Also I dont care how good of a defender he is, its 1st base.

How many times a player gets banned from a message board. It dont get much grittier than that. Also how many times they are referred to as a "ballplayer" or "old school"

I watched the Wings/Ducks game on Yahoo last night. It was pretty good quality. If Center Ice online is this good I think I might make the purchase.