indifferent

I know where everyone stands, but I posted this on another board re: Willis. I've seen many sportswriters bring up Willis as a way of strengthening Clemens case. "Well why not Willis, his record is almost as good as Carp's and his ERA is within shouting distance". How is Willis even a factor? The reason there's so much controversy between Carp and Clemens is because it's like apples and oranges comparing the two. They are both leading in different categories. Willis is clearly second in every category to Carp Willis Carp W/L 20-8 20-4 ERA .252 .228 WHIP 1.12 .98 BAA .243 .216 IP 200 213 Ks 137 191 BBs 46 44 I find it a little backhanded the way the Clemens supporters bring up Willis every chance they get. The insinuation is, "well, if you're going to look at wins, look at Willis too". BS

You can only keep a pitcher like Mulder down for so long. He's bound to break out and go back to the Cy Young contender form that he had with the A's. I'm still not 100% sold on Mulder. He's definitely not the "ace" that the Cards were hoping for. He's been getting better results lately, but his secondary numbers are still making me nervous. He's a decent #2 right now, but he always seems to be on the verge of a disaster. I'm absolutely giddy with Mulder as our 2 man into the playoffs. He's better than any number 2 we had last year. His 3.54 ERA is pretty impressive considering some of the blow outs he's suffered. Now number 3 on the other hand... I think that #3 is yet to be determined. Whoever cruises through the last month of the season (between Suppan, Morris, and Marquis) will probably get the ball in the playoffs. As of today, it's a dead heat, in my mind. I don't think so. Bernie asked LaRussa and Morris is definitely going to be our third starter. He indicated only a complete meltdown would change this. I would much rather see Suppan regardless of what happens between now and the end of the season. My reasoning is you hope to get a dominating start from both Carp and Mulder and Suppan has been the best all year at keeping us in the game consistently (plus he was our best pitcher in postseason last year). Morris' tenure with the Cards gets him the 3rd start in LaRussa's mind unfortunately.

I would concede that. I think most "defense" of Pujols defense is geared toward those that feel Pujols was buried at 1st base because he's a defensive liability. Not true.

But they can both win (and did last year?), right?

:lol: Did you have sweat dripping on your keyboard?

You can only keep a pitcher like Mulder down for so long. He's bound to break out and go back to the Cy Young contender form that he had with the A's. I'm still not 100% sold on Mulder. He's definitely not the "ace" that the Cards were hoping for. He's been getting better results lately, but his secondary numbers are still making me nervous. He's a decent #2 right now, but he always seems to be on the verge of a disaster. I'm absolutely giddy with Mulder as our 2 man into the playoffs. He's better than any number 2 we had last year. His 3.54 ERA is pretty impressive considering some of the blow outs he's suffered. Now number 3 on the other hand...

I thought there were some good points added here for both sides (and surprisingly non-homeresque) http://forums.stltoday.com/viewtopic.php?t=286388

Yeah, thanks for that BTW Mizzou!

So wins shouldn't matter. This is a merry go round argument, isn't it? I was hoping not to get sucked in. I already stated I weight wins more heavily than most on this board, but mostly because I think the actual pitching performance within the microcosm of one game factors pretty heavily into whether a pitcher gets a win or not. I don't think ERA tells the entire story. In your opinion, who should win the AL Cy? Colon with his 18 wins and 3.24 ERA or Rivera?

You almost had me, but then why wouldn't some key Wild Card wins count for Clemens? If the wins that Carpenter has are what's putting him up there count (along with his other excellent performance staistics), then Clemen's wins should count as well, no? Oh, they should count. I meant if Clemens gets a couple of "clutch" wins AND Carp gets a couple more wins through the end of the season, Clemens shouldn't get additional consideration. I'm tiring of ESPN's pandering of the what have you done lately mantra. You can't put an arbitrary label on what "counts" or what's "clutch". Or apparently you can only win the MVP if one plays on a playoff team that barely squeaks in AND you have to get to the playoffs. One also apparently only needs a red hot Sept, regardless of what one does the other five mos. of baseball to help one's team. IMO, the Cy should be less dependent of team stats than the MVP.

:oops:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050906/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbn_pirates_mcclendon_fired

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050906/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbn_pirates_mcclendon_fired

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050906/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbn_pirates_mcclendon_fired

Very

Has anyone else heard this on ESPN News?

I have to admit I'm a little surprised that I can't recall seeing one Cubs poster back the Carp horse on this one. I could have selective memory. I thought this weekend's match up between the two would lend a little more clarity to the argument, but basically they both gave up two runs. Carp's team came through once Clemens was pulled to give him the run support he's become accustomed to. ERA stayed for the most part the same for both. I'd say Carp notching another win and another complete game gave him a little more support. All in all, it's still anyone's CY to lose and I'm still withholding judgement, although I seem to put more stock in wins than most on this board. What I don't want to see is Clemens getting a few key wins to clinch the wild card for the Stros and have that factor anywhere near the Cy Young decision. IMO that should have no bearing. We're already seeing Jones earn points based on the position his team is in right now and taking away from two deserving candidates in Pujols and Lee.

Willis needs to crank it up then, way behind in K's, WHIP, and ERA.

After last night performance, I would leave him in. They need him to be the "Ace" and stop this losing skid. :lol: Well, there's your one game skid ended! Carp with his 20th win, 2.28 ERA, a complete game!

By default. Let's hope Tony pulls him soon; no need to leave him in, 91 pitches through 7. He's starting the 8th. I'd like to see him pulled after this batter.

Clemens out with strained left hammy.

Clemens out of the game after 5 IP and 73 pitches. Don't know what's wrong; assumption is lower back pain.

Sounds good, CCF! I was hoping you'd respond. I'll look you up. Congrats on your 1000th post!

Didn't you see Duncan viciously strike Perry's fist with his face? That's grounds for a suspension in my book. Ooh, he's a fighter alright! Snood, where've you been? I've been inclined to start a missing persons!

Suspended and fined for "brawl" in Pitt. Perry - 8 games Duncan - 4 games McClendon - 1 game All undisclosed fines; suspensions to start tomorrow.