BleedCubbieBlue81

Not only are the Cards .5 games behind the Sox, the Red Sox are right there with them. I think it's only like 4.5 games now or something. And the Red Sox are hot right now while the White Sox are struggling (if you can call being in first place and having the best record "struggling"). I think if the Cards want to win it this year, they are going to need more consistent outings from Morris and Mulder. Plus, getting the injured guys back will help a ton. A more consistent line up will mean more runs. If you can get the pitching going well in the playoffs, and those injured guys can come back at even 75-80%, I don't see any team beating you this year. I don't think the White Sox stand a chance against a healthy Cards team. The Cards keep winning despite their injuries. The Sox have gone on a slide once Podsednik got hurt. And Ozzie has relied a little too much on Buerhle, Garland, and Garcia. I think at least two of those guys might be wearing down (not Buerhle). But that's just my opinion.

Yeah, I hope he does too. He's put together a very good string of games lately, but I believe hasn't had the run support to earn him the W. I'd like to see him get 15 wins again, but it's not going to be easy.

I think the Hall of Fame guys that are pitching now (Maddux, and to a lesser degree, Clemens, Johnson, etc.) do get the benefit of the doubt a little more, but that is because they have proven for years that they can hit that spot on the outside corner consistently. If Greg Maddux hits a spot that's an inch or two off the corner of the plate, it's not because he missed, it's because that's where he wanted the ball to go. I'm still not sure if I agree with expanding their strike zones though. It should be uniform throughout the league in my opinion. But as long as Maddux is wearing a Cubs uniform, I won't complain. :wink:

I remember the Chicago broadcast showing the Cards dugout, and a couple of guys were yelling stuff at Barrett and trying to get his attention when he was taking signs from Dusty. LaRussa was standing next to them laughing. So Barrett stood up and yelled back at them. And then I remember thinking that I hope those guys come out of the dugout so Carlos could hit them with a fastball that would leave a two foot hole when it came out the other side. And honestly, I still wouldn't mind seeing LaRussa get drilled. It was classless when it happened. But then again, that whole series was classless. The Cubs lead in bean balls I believe, but half of them were curve balls that got away. I'm pretty sure Carlos is the only one to intentionally drill someone on the Cubs side.

Or maybe it's the fact that the Astros score runs when Oswalt pitches. But no, that's just crazy talk right? :roll: Yeah, I listed three guys. I had two minutes to look because I was at work, and I found three guys that had a year that is equal to or better than what Carp is doing. TWO MINUTES, and only in one league. Carp is having a good year, but it appears years like his happen quite frequently. Now, can you find me ANY pitcher that was having the year Clemens is having now in the last ten years. Let me save you some time... the answer is no. And if the verdict isn't out on Clemens because the year isn't over, then this argument is pointless, because last time I checked, Carp's year wasn't over either. Your posts are becoming less and less based on fact, and more and more based on homerism and your opinion that Roger Clemens can't go deep into game.

So Carp has a .60 ERA in MMP this year huh? When did he face them? Let me guess, was it back when they were one of the worst teams in the league and were 15 games under .500? 2 appearances don't show much. Depends on what categories I want to look at? Well, I tend to look at the ones that actually matter. And in those categories, Clemens is equal to, or better than Carp. You want three pitchers that had the year Carp is having or better? * Randy Johnson - 2002 * Pedro Martinez - 1997 (only 17 wins, but he was on the Expos - not the Cardinals) * Greg Maddux - 1995 (19 wins - 10 of your coveted complete games... oh yeah, and a 1.63 ERA) This is just a small sample that I looked up in two minutes. I can go on listing if you'd like. Okay, I'll go one more: Roger Clemens - 2005 You don't want me to bring up AL pitchers, there's a ton over there too.

All I'm saying is be consistent. If you gave it to Clemens last year because he won more games than Peavy and RJ, that's fine. Just don't change the standard this year, when Clemens is on the short end of that measurement. That's all. Carpenter leads in wins. Carpenter leads in strikeouts. Carpenter leads in K/BB. Carpenter leads in innings pitched. WHIP is almost a toss-up. Clemens leads in OPS against (but has faced slightly weaker opponents). Carpenter has been better in "close and late" games. Carpenter leads in alot of meaningful categories. Clemens leads in alot meaningful categories. I'm not just making a case to be argumentative. I'm making a case, because everyone is blinded by Clemens' ERA (rightfully so, I suppose). But there's more to the game than simply ERA, as we learned in last year's Cy Young voting. Fair enough. But we're trying to get you to see that it's not simply an ERA. Last years ERA leader led with a good ERA. But Clemens has an ERA that's unheard of in the modern era. He's at or near the top in every statistical category, just like Carp. But he has an ERA that is extraordinary. That's what puts him over the top. It's something that hasn't been done in many of our lifetimes, and probably won't be done again. Yeah, McGwire hit 70 homers that year, but he wasn't alone in breaking that record, and he wasn't at or near the top in virtually every other category. That's fine. Clemens has a great ERA. He's not going to break any records (ala Sosa & McGwire). He's not going to do something that's never been done before. He's got a great ERA. That's the bottom line. But he won last year, being tied for 5th in the NL in ERA. The emphasis just seems to fluctuate, depending on what's convenient for Clemens. Of course he won't break the ERA record. It's a different game now. This isn't the deadball era. He's doing something that hasn't been done in the modern era. And you're missing the point. ERA isn't the only reason he's leading in the Cy Young race (at least on this board). He's great in virtually every other category. Same thing as last year. He was 5th in ERA, but he was awesome in every statistical category. The fact that he's dominating while pitching almost every game in the juice box down there is simply staggering. A lot of guys have had the year Carpenter is having. But very few have had the year that Clemens is having.

Believe it or not, Reggie Sanders (of all people) was on pace for 30/30 this year, before his injury. That doesn't make him a candidate as one of the best all-around players, by any stretch, though. I pretty much agree with the opinions expressed. A-rod should be a lock. Oh, I'm not saying it still won't ever happen. I'm just saying it'll be rare. Sanders had a shot, but he got hurt. Guys like Abreu and Beltran are prime candidates, but we'll have to see if they can put a season like that together. By the way, how old is Cabrera? Isn't he really young, like 22? I think if he is given a few years, he could develop into one of the best. And I know his average is low, but why hasn't Andruw Jones name been mentioned (at least that I have seen, I've only skimmed through this thread)?

Well, he won't have much of a choice. This was his "try out" year. He was auditioning for other teams. Not much of an audition though. He'll have to take what we offer unless some team is willing to take a huge gamble on him. I say offer him another 1 year deal not worth more than 3 or 3.5 mil. see: Ordonez, Magglio And see how many games Magglio has missed this year. Plus, I doubt the Tigers are really happy with that decision right now. They paid too much. And I might be wrong, but he wasn't coming off of two consecutive injury riddled seasons. If we can get him for cheap, I say do it. If someone is willing to pay more, we have Cedeno to go for us, or we have freed up money to burn on someone else.

All I'm saying is be consistent. If you gave it to Clemens last year because he won more games than Peavy and RJ, that's fine. Just don't change the standard this year, when Clemens is on the short end of that measurement. That's all. Carpenter leads in wins. Carpenter leads in strikeouts. Carpenter leads in K/BB. Carpenter leads in innings pitched. WHIP is almost a toss-up. Clemens leads in OPS against (but has faced slightly weaker opponents). Carpenter has been better in "close and late" games. Carpenter leads in alot of meaningful categories. Clemens leads in alot meaningful categories. I'm not just making a case to be argumentative. I'm making a case, because everyone is blinded by Clemens' ERA (rightfully so, I suppose). But there's more to the game than simply ERA, as we learned in last year's Cy Young voting. Fair enough. But we're trying to get you to see that it's not simply an ERA. Last years ERA leader led with a good ERA. But Clemens has an ERA that's unheard of in the modern era. He's at or near the top in every statistical category, just like Carp. But he has an ERA that is extraordinary. That's what puts him over the top. It's something that hasn't been done in many of our lifetimes, and probably won't be done again. Yeah, McGwire hit 70 homers that year, but he wasn't alone in breaking that record, and he wasn't at or near the top in virtually every other category.

Well, I never said anything about Pujols and steroids. I brought up Pujols age, and it was meant to be a joke. But he's a very old looking 24-25 year old. And it's not uncommon to find players from other countries are actually 2 or 3 years older than they say they are. Was it Soriano a few years ago that was busted for this? But it was still only a joke. And have you ever seen what happens to the human body after steroid use? A 43 year olds body would break down. Muscles deteriorate, and their bodies break down. Health issues are enormous for steroid users later in their lives. So we'd probably see some of that from Clemens if he was in fact on steroids. But you apparently already see it because he pulled himself after 8 innings instead of going 9. But steroids are another issue altogether. And that's not one we all need to rehash again. Yep, I'm being ridiculous. I'm being ridiculous for thinking Roger Clemens is durable, and for thinking he's the leading Cy Young candidate right now. I apologize for being so ridiculous. I'll try to keep my comments more in favor of the Cardinals from now on. :wink:

And if you want to ruffle feathers, do you have any proof that Albert Pujols is really the age he says he is? :lol: And on that note, I'm off to lunch.

I have proof that he did last Saturday, in a tight game, with his team in a heated playoff race. Other than that, youre right, I don't have "proof". Do you have any "proof" that Clemens hasn't taken steroids? Because Canseco speculated that he probably has, and Canseco is turning out to be a pretty dependable source. *That should ruffle some feathers here!!* :lol: :wink: Haha, 8 SCORELESS INNINGS! With Brad Lidge in the bullpen, 8 scoreless innings is usually enough. He did his job, and he was smart enough to know that his season and health was more important than a complete game. And the steroids thing won't get anythin going here. Pitchers taking steroids is just dumb. His arm would've fallen off 15 years ago if he was on roids.

No one here has ever argued that. We've just been stating that for as good as Carp's year has been, it's not as good as Clemens.

We are, you have absolutely no proof to back up your claim that Carp is more durable than Clemens other than Clemens pulled himself out of a game after 8 scoreless innings.

No Roger is not durable at all. The dude just breaksdown all the time. Who brokedown last year and wasnt available for the playoffs? In Clemens career of 21 full years he has pitched in 29 games 17 of those years, 2 of those were his first two years. The dude is just not durable. Yep, 21 years in the major leagues. Definitely not durable. :roll:

And by the end of the year, Carpenter will likely have 25 more innings than Clemens. Is 50 extra innings the standard for this debate? Again, you're making rules up as we go along. And now playoff contention is a decisive factor, too. OK, I'm glad we're getting these things cleared up. Yup. It's been stated pretty clear why Carp has won 6 more games. Just as it was stated pretty clearly last year why Randy Johnson didn't win as many games as Roger Clemens (because RJ was on a horrible team). It didn't seem to matter last year. Nobody wanted to give the award to Randy Johnson. Now that the tables are turned, everybody suddenly sees the light, and wants to give consideration to a guy who isn't getting the run support. Hypocritical. Randy Johnson wasn't the far and away best pitcher last year with an ERA that hasn't been touched in decades. That's why he didn't win the Cy Young. And he definitely got consideration, just not enough. When Carps ERA drops down to even the same ballpark as Clemens, then maybe he'd be leading.

He took himself out of ONE game after EIGHT SHUTOUT INNINGS, and you act like this is an everyday occurance. Clemens is quite possibly one of the most durable guys in baseball HISTORY. Carpenter on the other hand, hahahahaha. I think he's spent more time on the DL than on the active roster. And since when does he only pitch at home? Wow, you pulled that one out of nowhere. He said he might not travel with the team when he's not pitching, but the Astros agreed to let him do that. He's earned that right. And how many guys have come out of retirement? What is wrong with that? He's out of retirement and making everyone look foolish when he's on the mound. Wow, just wow. I wonder what it's like to only see Cardinal red.

Exactly, the wise thing to do would be to start limiting his innings soon. He's a vital part of your world series chances. That's not someone you want gasping in the playoffs. Look where overusing pitchers got the Cubs in '03.

Clemens is still going to finish with over 200 innings. Peavy didn't even come close to that if I recall correctly. 200 innings is WAY more than enough for one season. If it were easy to do that, people would do it almost every year. Carp has done it only once while Clemens has done it for the better part of 21 years. The few inning advantage he has doesn't mean anything. It just means that LaRussa is willing to burn his guy out and ruin his arm for good so that he can win a trophy instead of a world series. And your understanding of stats is flawed. In 2002 or 2003, Kerry Wood led the majors in strikeouts. Was he the most dominant pitcher that year? Not by a long shot. Greg Maddux has never been a strikeout pitcher, how many Cy Youngs does he have? Strikeouts are overrated. And they only good if you can get them in the right situations.

Yeah, that's what I thought was going on too. That's why this thread confused me at first. But anyway, I don't know if I'd go as high as 4.5 for Nomar. For one, we could easily sign him for less and there'd be almost nothing he could do about it. And if we wanted to give him more, we could give him an incentive based contract where he'd make 2.5 base and have the opportunity to go as high as 6 mil based on plate appearances, etc. If he's going to ask for too much money, I think we have a major league ready SS just itching for his chance to prove himself. (Cedeno)

Carpenter is more dominant. He's pitched 3 of the best 5 games in baseball this year. Clemens isn't even on the list. Clemens has been more consistent, because he's had the advantage of being coddled more than Carpenter. Carpenter WANTS the ball in the 8th & 9th inning, and has shown that he'll finish the job. Clemens wants a shower after 7. So you talk to Roger a lot huh? He told you this as a fact? Wow, I didn't know he was that close to you Cardinal fans. What's he like in real life? You have no idea why he doesn't go for complete games. Maybe it's because Garner knows a 43 year olds arm is more prone to fatigue injuries than a 23 year olds. Maybe he's not as petty as LaRussa and doesn't care about a guys personal stats. Quit stating your opinion of him as a fact. The fact is, Chris Carpenter is not Roger Clemens. Chris Carpenter will never be Roger Clemens. It would be a flat out miracle if Carpenter even had a career half as good as Clemens. The fact is, Carp has had one and a half good years while Clemens has had 21 straight. Yeah, and when you're stud pitcher with a 1.32 ends up on the DL? Give me a break. Can you honestly tell me you'd feel more confident with a tired and worn down Carpenter out there in the 9th than a fresh Izzy? That's borderline insanity.

I think it'll be pretty rare from now on to see a 30/30 or 40/40 guy. The stolen base isn't used like it used to be. It used to be common to keep watch on guys like Conseco and Bonds to see if they could do it, but it's a different game now.

Well, he won't have much of a choice. This was his "try out" year. He was auditioning for other teams. Not much of an audition though. He'll have to take what we offer unless some team is willing to take a huge gamble on him. I say offer him another 1 year deal not worth more than 3 or 3.5 mil.

Just because Carpenter throws an extra half inning a game does not make him more dominant. You're the first person I've actually heard say that Clemens hasn't been the most dominant. He's had one "bad" start. And in that bad start he only gave up 4 runs. His ERA is dominant over everyone's, INCLUDING Carpenter. He leads the league in most of the major pitching categories (except for complete games, which while relevant, I think you highly overrate.) Clemens dwarfs him in ERA. His WHIP is better. He gives up less hits and home runs. He has a lower batting average against. And is dead even with him in K's per 9 innings. If Clemens had the Cards offense behind him for most of the year, there's a good chance he'd be undefeated or have one loss. He's more dominant than Carp.