CubinNY

While I normally don't enter the discussion in the game threads on this subject I have always been more impressed with the argument TT is making. When a pitcher has been wild and needs to avoid a walk and the batter is a competent batter, have him look for his pitch on pitch 1 (and pitch 2 and pitch 3 etc.). In that situation there's no reason to swing at a pitcher's pitch because he's unlikely to be able to get that over the plate. If the pitcher knows you're not going to swing at pitch 1 it just puts you down in the count automatically. I think it depends on the player. The problem is that the player often doesn't swing at "his" pitch and grounds out weakly or pops up. I don't necessarily have a problem with swinging at the first pitch as long as the batter has good plate discipline. Pujols is a disciplined enough hitter to give him the greenlight, Corey Patterson, not so much.

Noting against your trade idea, but I see no reason to mortage the future for KGJ. If the Cubs are taking on a good portion of the deferred salary they shouldn't have to give up much to get him. I'd be willing to give them their pick of two position prospects or one pitching prospect but they have to take Jones. But truely, I don't think the Cubs should trade for KGJ at all. He's having a good year, but one he's not likely to repeat ever again.

It's no more insane than $10+ million for .500 pitchers and $8-!2 million for mediocre hitters. It's all pretty insane right now. I bet ARod is licking his chops. Somebody is going to give him $30 million/year for 5 years. And then that team will raise ticket prices to "stay competitiive". It's a micorcosm of the economy, the rich get richer (owners and players) and the middle class pays the bills (fans).

Provide some scrutiny that disproves it. I don't know of any thinly built speedy guys like Ichiro whose game held up throughout their mid 30's. We're talking about a guy with little patience and very little power whose entire game is based on his ability to make contact and run to first. The closest comparable I can think of is Kenny Lofton, but he had more patience and more power. He has stuck around a while, but has been quite inconsistent. Lofton Otis Nixon Ricky Henderson Ozzie Smith Lou Brock Willie Wilson Brett Butler Davey Lopes Omar Vizquel What a terrible attempt to defend your stance. LOL! You said, "I don't know of any thinly built speedy guys like Ichiro whose game held up throughout their mid 30's." Well now you know of several. Happy to be of service. Except for the fact that Ricky was never thinly built, and Brett Butler, Davey Lopes, Otis Nixon, Lou Brock, Omar Vizquel, Ozzie Smith, and Kenny Lofton were pretty much medicore to crappy players by their mid 30s. Is it really that hard to look up statistics? Baseball reference is your friend. So you're saying these guys weren't as good at 38 as they were at 25? Gosh, I hadn't noticed that. :roll: The point is, the decline seen in these guys' career paths is not at all atypical for any player, or indicative of some enhanced risk associated with being thin and fast. In fact these guys aged much better than the general baseball population does. I don't know how or why you continue to make suck claims based on no evidence whatsoever. It is mind bottling.

Ichiro's game is not built on speed. It's built on an incredible ability to hit a baseball in almost any direct.

Provide some scrutiny that disproves it. I don't know of any thinly built speedy guys like Ichiro whose game held up throughout their mid 30's. We're talking about a guy with little patience and very little power whose entire game is based on his ability to make contact and run to first. The closest comparable I can think of is Kenny Lofton, but he had more patience and more power. He has stuck around a while, but has been quite inconsistent. Lofton Otis Nixon Ricky Henderson Ozzie Smith Lou Brock Willie Wilson Brett Butler Davey Lopes Omar Vizquel What a terrible attempt to defend your stance. LOL! You said, "I don't know of any thinly built speedy guys like Ichiro whose game held up throughout their mid 30's." Well now you know of several. Happy to be of service. Except for the fact that Ricky was never thinly built, and Brett Butler, Davey Lopes, Otis Nixon, Lou Brock, Omar Vizquel, Ozzie Smith, and Kenny Lofton were pretty much medicore to crappy players by their mid 30s. Is it really that hard to look up statistics? Baseball reference is your friend.

Prime years are 26-29. I don't see how it's arbitrary to say a player who is 31 is past his prime. Soriano has an OPS+ of 126 right now, below what he had at 26, 27 and 30. Prime years are not static for everybody, it goes back to what Have a seat, Neifi! was talking about. His OPS+ for this year is trivially lower than a couple years past, especially considering the difference in OBP making up any difference in league/park factor. The point is that Soriano is playing just as well as he has at any point in his career(again, look to last year's numbers at the break), I don't see how you can say he's past his prime just because he's 31. Also, 26-29 isn't universally accepted as the normal prime years either, ranges from 28-32 have also been cited. OK. Let's not lose sight of the point here. Whether the prime is 26-29 or 28-32 Soriano, Lee, and Aramis are not "entering" their prime they are "leaving" their prime.

Um, Tony, you DO realize that you actually need to tie the game for extra innings to even become an issue, don't you? And Pujols is your best bet to tie the game. I didn't see the game but it reminds me of a game in Pittsburgh where Dusty put in Fontenot to bat late in the game instead of Dubois becuase he was saving Dubois for extra innings. The Cubs did eventually come back to win the game, but it had noting to do with Fontenot or Dubios.

I like the "other" category

That's a really bizarre and arbitrary definition of peak. For crying out loud, a lot of players still produce as well as ever in their early 30's (even 31.5 :shock: ). If they are, then I would say they are still at the "peak" region of their career. What is so damn bizarre about that? Obviously each player is different then another. So to make the statement "a player over 29 years old is past his prime" is too broad of a generalization. Some are, some aren't. I think i'll just go bang my head against the wall now. Bang harder. To say a guy must be in his peak if he is top 5 in his league in AVG or HR is absurd. You don't understand the concept of peak. To be past your prime does not mean you stink. It means you aren't as good as you were at your best. ARod is the only guy you listed who is outperforming what he has done at younger ages. Soriano is off the pace he set last year and will probably remain there throughout his time with the Cubs. He's past his prime. Just to tag on and to reiterate: PAST PRIME DOES NOT MEAN WASHED UP. It means not likely to get significantly better. Some players plateau, not many though. Most get worse and stay worse (than their prime) until they retire. I'm with Abuck, I don't fancy seeing a 38 year young Soriano in a Cub uniform making 18 million. However, that doesn't mean that he won't be an ok player.

Soriano is not in the "prime" of his career unless he's going to be playing as long as Minni Minoso or Julio Franco. He's 31 and will be 32 next January.

What I've been seeing in names being mentioned, I don't think Hendry can do anything that won't piss off a ton of people. Most of the big names are rentals and people will be pissed if he gives up young players. If he doesn't make a big deal, people will be pissed because he didn't make a big deal. I'm not defending Hendry, but I can see the critics lining up and ready to pounce on July 31st no matter what happens. I think the only way he can please everyone would be to trade Jones, Izzy, and Eyre for Arod plus cash and then resign Arod to an extension at $1 million per year for the next 5 years. I don't know if that is true. But the fact of the matter is that it is Hendry himself who painted the Cubs into this corner. So no matter what happens I think the criticism can be justified. Deep inside of me I'd like to see Hendry trade Z for A-Rod straight up. I don't think Z will be in a Cub uniform next year and Z has a lot of miles on a young arm. He's the bait that can actually bring in what the Cubs desprately need, more bats. I know it won't happen though. That would be tempting, but I just don't have faith in any of our other pitchers to step up to being the ace of the staff. If there was some way to be sure that Zambrano wasn't going to resign, I'd be all over the deal. And who starts game one of a playoff series? (or game 2-3-4 for that matter?) Your choices are Hill, Lilly, Marshall and Marquis at that point...that's not a playoff caliber rotation.... If they're not a playoff calibur rotation without Z they are not one with him either. Z has the worst ERA+ and 4th worst WHIP of the five current starters.

Hendry gets killed for buying high, for not spending enough, for signing cr*p hoping to catch lightning in a bottle, for trading away future superstars for junk, for hanging on to guys too long, for letting prospects rot, for pushing thier development too fast... If Hendry has done it, he gets killed for it, not always for nothing. Well said! I have mentioned and read possible trade targets and/or deals and everyone of them gets attacked by about half of the posters. Imagine if you were the GM and trying to make the real deals instead of all of us pretending to be the GM. This year looks to be a very bad year to try to make an impact deal at the trading deadline, especially for a right-handed bat. If only Hendry had a young, cheap, RH OF bat that had a full year of good production at the major league level to use from the start of the season, he wouldn't be flummoxed by such a poor market. Well written

What I've been seeing in names being mentioned, I don't think Hendry can do anything that won't piss off a ton of people. Most of the big names are rentals and people will be pissed if he gives up young players. If he doesn't make a big deal, people will be pissed because he didn't make a big deal. I'm not defending Hendry, but I can see the critics lining up and ready to pounce on July 31st no matter what happens. I think the only way he can please everyone would be to trade Jones, Izzy, and Eyre for Arod plus cash and then resign Arod to an extension at $1 million per year for the next 5 years. I don't know if that is true. But the fact of the matter is that it is Hendry himself who painted the Cubs into this corner. So no matter what happens I think the criticism can be justified. Deep inside of me I'd like to see Hendry trade Z for A-Rod straight up. I don't think Z will be in a Cub uniform next year and Z has a lot of miles on a young arm. He's the bait that can actually bring in what the Cubs desprately need, more bats. I know it won't happen though.

Apparently, when Towers inquired about Dye, Kenny Williams asked for Khalil Greene and Scott Linebrink. That is high-larious. Why didn't he ask for Gonzalez too?

They realize Murton is sitting in AAA right now, right? But you're not likely to get great numbers from anyone that doesn't get consistent playing time. Exactly. I want to feel excited about the possibility of Murton (and maybe Soto or Cedeno) getting the call, but honestly we all know what'll happen if they do. Arrive at Wrigley, wait 3 days before getting a start, going 0/4 with 2 Ks, banished to the bench for spot duty for a 2-3 week period before being sent down again. Newsflash, Baker isn't here anymore. I think Lou has been good about playing guys that have just been brought up. Also, I think he has shown the willingness to play those who produce, or who have earned more playing time. You are free to think what you like. It's America. I love the idea of earning playing time as if there should be a 1:1 correspondence from each AB to the amount of time one gets to play.

Give us some dirt.

The Cubs are too shortsighted. They think they need a HR hitter and appearently when Murton plays in RF he forgets how to play baseball (at least according to some). Murton also seems to have gotten into the doghouse with Lou for having the termidity to disagree with Lou on whether he changed his batting "mechanics". It's all so very Cubs like to not play the best option at a given positon.

The Phillies are the same number of games out in their division as the Cubs, why would they want to take a bunch of garbage and pay the same amount that they are paying for Burell?

That just means you'll be twice as disappointed when it doesn't happen. :wink: Ouch. Since I'm already losing, I'll mention that it's already happened twice this weekend alone for me....8-) ONCE FOR ME!!! :stickman: :w00t: :trophy: :party1: :jive: :party2: Chicks dig bikers. that's what it was, she finally went for a ride yesterday You're dangerous again. Start walking around in a white T-shirt with your cigs rolled up in the sleve and walk around all day like you've smelled a fart. You'll have more poon than you can handle.

That just means you'll be twice as disappointed when it doesn't happen. :wink: Ouch. Since I'm already losing, I'll mention that it's already happened twice this weekend alone for me....8-) ONCE FOR ME!!! :stickman: :w00t: :trophy: :party1: :jive: :party2: Chicks dig bikers.

I love the logic. Jones is a CFer so he doesn't count. Fantastic. He's played 160+ gemes in CF and 800+ in RF/LF. Jones counts, he doesn't count for much unfortunately, but he counts. I'd get rid of Ward's fat ass in a NY minute if the Cubs could get an 800/900 OPS outfielder to play in RF every day. If they could find one, they might be able to play Pie in CF every day.

The ball has to be juiced

Holy Christ Jay Bruce just crushed a ball.

Hu is at SS.?. :D