Nomar to the Pirates?

[CubfaninCA]

 

Unless someone like Cuban buys Pittsburgh, I can't see them turning it around, as they just don't produce the revenue to be real competitive. That franchise just like the city seems to be going downhill.

 

When was the last time you where in Pittsburg? I was there last year for a few Cub games over the couse of a weekend. The city is alive and well. The downtown is thriving and they have new shopping and tourism attractions.

 

IMO, the problem is that they haven't been good in a long time. If the Steelers can sell out Heinz field, the Pirates can sell out PNC.

 

Why would I want to go to Pittsburgh? Yikes! So what, they threw a bunch of government money to bring alive downtown. So did Cincy. It still doesn't change the fact that they're both old economy cities. Both places should be one sport towns. Send the baseball franchises to the East or West Coast or to Chicago.

 

whatever. I just find it funny (not really) that you would bag on a place you know nothing about. The old economy you talk about was gone a long time ago. But to each his own I guess.

 

Yes, it's gone and what has replaced it besides a bunch of government money??? I've taken quite a few economics classes and read often, I'm not just wingin it here.... They don't have much of a shot going against the big dogs, NY, Boston, SoCal, Chicago & Houston. The Cardinals survive on a rabid fan base, good management & tons of luck. For the most part, baseball's a rich man's game. They need a salary cap.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

Unless someone like Cuban buys Pittsburgh, I can't see them turning it around, as they just don't produce the revenue to be real competitive. That franchise just like the city seems to be going downhill.

 

When was the last time you where in Pittsburg? I was there last year for a few Cub games over the couse of a weekend. The city is alive and well. The downtown is thriving and they have new shopping and tourism attractions.

 

IMO, the problem is that they haven't been good in a long time. If the Steelers can sell out Heinz field, the Pirates can sell out PNC.

 

Why would I want to go to Pittsburgh? Yikes! So what, they threw a bunch of government money to bring alive downtown. So did Cincy. It still doesn't change the fact that they're both old economy cities. Both places should be one sport towns. Send the baseball franchises to the East or West Coast or to Chicago.

 

So, in your point of view, all cities in Middle America with the exception of Chicago should be one sport cities. Get a clue!

[JC]

 

Unless someone like Cuban buys Pittsburgh, I can't see them turning it around, as they just don't produce the revenue to be real competitive. That franchise just like the city seems to be going downhill.

 

When was the last time you where in Pittsburg? I was there last year for a few Cub games over the couse of a weekend. The city is alive and well. The downtown is thriving and they have new shopping and tourism attractions.

 

IMO, the problem is that they haven't been good in a long time. If the Steelers can sell out Heinz field, the Pirates can sell out PNC.

 

Why would I want to go to Pittsburgh? Yikes! So what, they threw a bunch of government money to bring alive downtown. So did Cincy. It still doesn't change the fact that they're both old economy cities. Both places should be one sport towns. Send the baseball franchises to the East or West Coast or to Chicago.

 

whatever. I just find it funny (not really) that you would bag on a place you know nothing about. The old economy you talk about was gone a long time ago. But to each his own I guess.

 

 

Yes, it's gone and what has replaced it besides a bunch of government money??? I've taken quite a few economics classes and read often, I'm not just wingin it here.... They don't have much of a shot going against the big dogs, NY, Boston, SoCal, Chicago & Houston. The Cardinals survive on a rabid fan base, good management & tons of luck. For the most part, baseball's a rich man's game. They need a salary cap.

 

But, that still doesn't address the issue about competetiveness of small market teams, which has become a facet of this discussion. Why don't they have much of a shot? The Marlins have no fan base and are repeatedly juggling their payroll to cut costs. And, if you are dismissing Oakland simply because they have Beane, that seems unfair. The Pirates have as much of a chance as anyone to land a Beane-type GM if they chose to go that route. Cleveland has been growing competetively for two years now. If you're waiting for them to be one hit wonders from 2005, not only was it not applicable for this year, but 2006 should be another good year.

 

Competetiveness is more a function of an organization than fan base or revenue. Higher revenue should make it easier in theory to be competetive, but it neither guarantees competetiveness, nor does a lack of revenue preclude competetiveness.

[CubfaninCA]

 

Unless someone like Cuban buys Pittsburgh, I can't see them turning it around, as they just don't produce the revenue to be real competitive. That franchise just like the city seems to be going downhill.

 

When was the last time you where in Pittsburg? I was there last year for a few Cub games over the couse of a weekend. The city is alive and well. The downtown is thriving and they have new shopping and tourism attractions.

 

IMO, the problem is that they haven't been good in a long time. If the Steelers can sell out Heinz field, the Pirates can sell out PNC.

 

Why would I want to go to Pittsburgh? Yikes! So what, they threw a bunch of government money to bring alive downtown. So did Cincy. It still doesn't change the fact that they're both old economy cities. Both places should be one sport towns. Send the baseball franchises to the East or West Coast or to Chicago.

 

So, in your point of view, all cities in Middle America with the exception of Chicago should be one sport cities. Get a clue!

 

Depends on the city. As someone else pointed out, Pittsburgh is a football town. Hence it's very difficult for baseball to be competitive given that there's no salary cap. St. Louis can survive w/ baseball and football, cause it's a baseball town by far, and football has a salary cap.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

Unless someone like Cuban buys Pittsburgh, I can't see them turning it around, as they just don't produce the revenue to be real competitive. That franchise just like the city seems to be going downhill.

 

When was the last time you where in Pittsburg? I was there last year for a few Cub games over the couse of a weekend. The city is alive and well. The downtown is thriving and they have new shopping and tourism attractions.

 

IMO, the problem is that they haven't been good in a long time. If the Steelers can sell out Heinz field, the Pirates can sell out PNC.

 

Why would I want to go to Pittsburgh? Yikes! So what, they threw a bunch of government money to bring alive downtown. So did Cincy. It still doesn't change the fact that they're both old economy cities. Both places should be one sport towns. Send the baseball franchises to the East or West Coast or to Chicago.

 

So, in your point of view, all cities in Middle America with the exception of Chicago should be one sport cities. Get a clue!

 

Depends on the city. As someone else pointed out, Pittsburgh is a football town. Hence it's very difficult for baseball to be competitive given that there's no salary cap. St. Louis can survive w/ baseball and football, cause it's a baseball town by far, and football has a salary cap.

This has more to do with revenue sharing than with a salary cap. Football has a much better plan for revenue sharing than baseball does. If revenues were more evenly distributed, it would not be nearly the problem it is. Baseball has been working on that issue, but there is still a long, long way to go.

[CubfaninCA]

 

Unless someone like Cuban buys Pittsburgh, I can't see them turning it around, as they just don't produce the revenue to be real competitive. That franchise just like the city seems to be going downhill.

 

When was the last time you where in Pittsburg? I was there last year for a few Cub games over the couse of a weekend. The city is alive and well. The downtown is thriving and they have new shopping and tourism attractions.

 

IMO, the problem is that they haven't been good in a long time. If the Steelers can sell out Heinz field, the Pirates can sell out PNC.

 

Why would I want to go to Pittsburgh? Yikes! So what, they threw a bunch of government money to bring alive downtown. So did Cincy. It still doesn't change the fact that they're both old economy cities. Both places should be one sport towns. Send the baseball franchises to the East or West Coast or to Chicago.

 

whatever. I just find it funny (not really) that you would bag on a place you know nothing about. The old economy you talk about was gone a long time ago. But to each his own I guess.

 

 

Yes, it's gone and what has replaced it besides a bunch of government money??? I've taken quite a few economics classes and read often, I'm not just wingin it here.... They don't have much of a shot going against the big dogs, NY, Boston, SoCal, Chicago & Houston. The Cardinals survive on a rabid fan base, good management & tons of luck. For the most part, baseball's a rich man's game. They need a salary cap.

 

But, that still doesn't address the issue about competetiveness of small market teams, which has become a facet of this discussion. Why don't they have much of a shot? The Marlins have no fan base and are repeatedly juggling their payroll to cut costs. And, if you are dismissing Oakland simply because they have Beane, that seems unfair. The Pirates have as much of a chance as anyone to land a Beane-type GM if they chose to go that route. Cleveland has been growing competetively for two years now. If you're waiting for them to be one hit wonders from 2005, not only was it not applicable for this year, but 2006 should be another good year.

 

Competetiveness is more a function of an organization than fan base or revenue. Higher revenue should make it easier in theory to be competetive, but it neither guarantees competetiveness, nor does a lack of revenue preclude competetiveness.

 

Yes, organization is key for the small/middle market orgs, hence why Oakland has been competitive for the past several years, as Beane's a drafting god. There's only so many Billy Beane's out there though.

 

For the most part, revenue's the deciding factor in baseball though. NY & Boston have been really good cause they can outspend everyone, and cover up bad signings or a poor minor league.

 

Yes, a big revenue teams can really suck, but many of the winners in the past 10 years have had big revenues. Iirc Florida in 97 and AZ in 01 or 02 (whenever they won it) had a good sized budget, but had to make major reductions afterwards. Iirc the White Sox and Florida in 03 were middle market spenders. Can't recall any small markets even getting into the World Series recently. Hence put a fork in Cincy, Pittsburgh and Cleveland. Yes, Cleveland was good in the 90's, but they used to spend lots too.

[CubfaninCA]

 

Unless someone like Cuban buys Pittsburgh, I can't see them turning it around, as they just don't produce the revenue to be real competitive. That franchise just like the city seems to be going downhill.

 

When was the last time you where in Pittsburg? I was there last year for a few Cub games over the couse of a weekend. The city is alive and well. The downtown is thriving and they have new shopping and tourism attractions.

 

IMO, the problem is that they haven't been good in a long time. If the Steelers can sell out Heinz field, the Pirates can sell out PNC.

 

Why would I want to go to Pittsburgh? Yikes! So what, they threw a bunch of government money to bring alive downtown. So did Cincy. It still doesn't change the fact that they're both old economy cities. Both places should be one sport towns. Send the baseball franchises to the East or West Coast or to Chicago.

 

So, in your point of view, all cities in Middle America with the exception of Chicago should be one sport cities. Get a clue!

 

Depends on the city. As someone else pointed out, Pittsburgh is a football town. Hence it's very difficult for baseball to be competitive given that there's no salary cap. St. Louis can survive w/ baseball and football, cause it's a baseball town by far, and football has a salary cap.

This has more to do with revenue sharing than with a salary cap. Football has a much better plan for revenue sharing than baseball does. If revenues were more evenly distributed, it would not be nearly the problem it is. Baseball has been working on that issue, but there is still a long, long way to go.

 

Good point.

 

My basic point is that if baseball doesn't change the way they finance the game certain franchises are toast and would be better served by moving to much bigger metro areas. New York could easily have a 3rd team. Perhaps even a fourth.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

Unless someone like Cuban buys Pittsburgh, I can't see them turning it around, as they just don't produce the revenue to be real competitive. That franchise just like the city seems to be going downhill.

 

When was the last time you where in Pittsburg? I was there last year for a few Cub games over the couse of a weekend. The city is alive and well. The downtown is thriving and they have new shopping and tourism attractions.

 

IMO, the problem is that they haven't been good in a long time. If the Steelers can sell out Heinz field, the Pirates can sell out PNC.

 

Why would I want to go to Pittsburgh? Yikes! So what, they threw a bunch of government money to bring alive downtown. So did Cincy. It still doesn't change the fact that they're both old economy cities. Both places should be one sport towns. Send the baseball franchises to the East or West Coast or to Chicago.

 

So, in your point of view, all cities in Middle America with the exception of Chicago should be one sport cities. Get a clue!

 

Depends on the city. As someone else pointed out, Pittsburgh is a football town. Hence it's very difficult for baseball to be competitive given that there's no salary cap. St. Louis can survive w/ baseball and football, cause it's a baseball town by far, and football has a salary cap.

This has more to do with revenue sharing than with a salary cap. Football has a much better plan for revenue sharing than baseball does. If revenues were more evenly distributed, it would not be nearly the problem it is. Baseball has been working on that issue, but there is still a long, long way to go.

 

Good point.

 

My basic point is that if baseball doesn't change the way they finance the game certain franchises are toast and would be better served by moving to much bigger metro areas. New York could easily have a 3rd team. Perhaps even a fourth.

 

I'm not sure they would or baseball would be better served moving teams away form those places. As you move teams, fans in those areas will become less inclined to be avid baseball fans. While you may have greater attendance if you had three teams in NY and another team in SoCal, what would it do to the national popularity of the sport?

 

Also, are you seriously suggesting moving teams away from cities like Cleveland and Pittsburgh that hold so much history of the game? Doing so seems short-sighted and provincial.

[CubfaninCA]

What do you mean by national popularity??

 

All I know is if the 3rd NY team made the World Series, they would probably get higher ratings than most other clubs. Their rating share would probably dwarf teams like Cincy and Pittsburgh. That seems to be all that matters nowadays.

 

EDIT: My suggestion is to change the financing. However, both Florida teams need to move. That place is just all about football.

 

Even up the money and possibly Cincy and Pittsburgh can survive. As you mention, they have long histories, and it would be a shame to see them have to move. If they keep the current financing system, yes they should send those franchises elsewhere. Both are essentially farm systems for the big market teams.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

 

Unless someone like Cuban buys Pittsburgh, I can't see them turning it around, as they just don't produce the revenue to be real competitive. That franchise just like the city seems to be going downhill.

 

When was the last time you where in Pittsburg? I was there last year for a few Cub games over the couse of a weekend. The city is alive and well. The downtown is thriving and they have new shopping and tourism attractions.

 

IMO, the problem is that they haven't been good in a long time. If the Steelers can sell out Heinz field, the Pirates can sell out PNC.

 

Why would I want to go to Pittsburgh? Yikes! So what, they threw a bunch of government money to bring alive downtown. So did Cincy. It still doesn't change the fact that they're both old economy cities. Both places should be one sport towns. Send the baseball franchises to the East or West Coast or to Chicago.

 

Man, are you parochial, or what? The Reds and Pirates are original NL teams, they're just as proud as our Cubs. And they're not the "poor sisters" many make them out to be, it's lousy baseball teams that are the problem, not fan support or lack of underlying passion. There are nearly 7 million people in the effective Reds dominance area, including Louisville, Dayton, Columbus and Indianapolis. Pittsburgh is in a little tougher spot, but they are in better shape than KC, Milwaukee, Tampa and frankly, San Diego in terms of total fan base size.

 

Honus Wagner. Ernie Lombardi. Ted Kluszewski. Ralph Kiner. Roberto Clemente. Pops Stargell. The Big Red Machine.

[CubfaninCA]

 

Unless someone like Cuban buys Pittsburgh, I can't see them turning it around, as they just don't produce the revenue to be real competitive. That franchise just like the city seems to be going downhill.

 

When was the last time you where in Pittsburg? I was there last year for a few Cub games over the couse of a weekend. The city is alive and well. The downtown is thriving and they have new shopping and tourism attractions.

 

IMO, the problem is that they haven't been good in a long time. If the Steelers can sell out Heinz field, the Pirates can sell out PNC.

 

Why would I want to go to Pittsburgh? Yikes! So what, they threw a bunch of government money to bring alive downtown. So did Cincy. It still doesn't change the fact that they're both old economy cities. Both places should be one sport towns. Send the baseball franchises to the East or West Coast or to Chicago.

 

Man, are you parochial, or what? The Reds and Pirates are original NL teams, they're just as proud as our Cubs. And they're not the "poor sisters" many make them out to be, it's lousy baseball teams that are the problem, not fan support or lack of underlying passion. There are nearly 7 million people in the effective Reds dominance area, including Louisville, Dayton, Columbus and Indianapolis. Pittsburgh is in a little tougher spot, but they are in better shape than KC, Milwaukee, Tampa and frankly, San Diego in terms of total fan base size.

 

Honus Wagner. Ernie Lombardi. Ted Kluszewski. Ralph Kiner. Roberto Clemente. Pops Stargell. The Big Red Machine.

 

Not sure where you're getting SD?? People near & in SD have lots of money and can afford the rising ticket prices, which is a big part of producing revenue. And I forgot about KC.

 

As for Cincy, all I keep hearing is that the Cincy metro's going downhill fast.

[Bruce Miles]

Putting all the economic and sociological arguments aside, I can tell you Pittsburgh is one of my favorite cities (FWIW). It's really an underrated gem. The people are extremely friendly, and there are some great places to eat and drink.

PNC Park is just beautiful, and Pittsburgh's skyline provides a nice backdrop. (Too bad the press box is too high. Just like a writer to complain.)

[goonys evil twin]

Just like a writer to complain.)

 

Or just like many Cubs fans.

[Fro]

 

Unless someone like Cuban buys Pittsburgh, I can't see them turning it around, as they just don't produce the revenue to be real competitive. That franchise just like the city seems to be going downhill.

 

When was the last time you where in Pittsburg? I was there last year for a few Cub games over the couse of a weekend. The city is alive and well. The downtown is thriving and they have new shopping and tourism attractions.

 

IMO, the problem is that they haven't been good in a long time. If the Steelers can sell out Heinz field, the Pirates can sell out PNC.

 

Why would I want to go to Pittsburgh? Yikes! So what, they threw a bunch of government money to bring alive downtown. So did Cincy. It still doesn't change the fact that they're both old economy cities. Both places should be one sport towns. Send the baseball franchises to the East or West Coast or to Chicago.

 

Man, are you parochial, or what? The Reds and Pirates are original NL teams, they're just as proud as our Cubs. And they're not the "poor sisters" many make them out to be, it's lousy baseball teams that are the problem, not fan support or lack of underlying passion. There are nearly 7 million people in the effective Reds dominance area, including Louisville, Dayton, Columbus and Indianapolis. Pittsburgh is in a little tougher spot, but they are in better shape than KC, Milwaukee, Tampa and frankly, San Diego in terms of total fan base size.

 

Honus Wagner. Ernie Lombardi. Ted Kluszewski. Ralph Kiner. Roberto Clemente. Pops Stargell. The Big Red Machine.

 

The only problem is, due to crappy regional TV networks like Fox Sports Ohio, the Reds aren't on TV in Indiana and Kentucky and the Cubs are. I lived 60 miles away from Cincy and couldn't watch Reds games on TV. The Cubs dominate Indianapolis and most of Indiana except for the part in the Cincy metro region (helps that the mighty Tribune owns a couple TV stations in Indianapolis).

 

Pittsburgh and Cincy have to put a good product on the field to get huge fan support. The Cubs don't have to thanks to brilliant marketing by the Tribune in the 80s (and some good teams in certain years too).

 

I do agree that they have a loyal fanbase due to their tradition and therefore they're better off than a lot of teams.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

Unless someone like Cuban buys Pittsburgh, I can't see them turning it around, as they just don't produce the revenue to be real competitive. That franchise just like the city seems to be going downhill.

 

When was the last time you where in Pittsburg? I was there last year for a few Cub games over the couse of a weekend. The city is alive and well. The downtown is thriving and they have new shopping and tourism attractions.

 

IMO, the problem is that they haven't been good in a long time. If the Steelers can sell out Heinz field, the Pirates can sell out PNC.

 

Why would I want to go to Pittsburgh? Yikes! So what, they threw a bunch of government money to bring alive downtown. So did Cincy. It still doesn't change the fact that they're both old economy cities. Both places should be one sport towns. Send the baseball franchises to the East or West Coast or to Chicago.

 

Man, are you parochial, or what? The Reds and Pirates are original NL teams, they're just as proud as our Cubs. And they're not the "poor sisters" many make them out to be, it's lousy baseball teams that are the problem, not fan support or lack of underlying passion. There are nearly 7 million people in the effective Reds dominance area, including Louisville, Dayton, Columbus and Indianapolis. Pittsburgh is in a little tougher spot, but they are in better shape than KC, Milwaukee, Tampa and frankly, San Diego in terms of total fan base size.

 

Honus Wagner. Ernie Lombardi. Ted Kluszewski. Ralph Kiner. Roberto Clemente. Pops Stargell. The Big Red Machine.

 

Not sure where you're getting SD?? People near & in SD have lots of money and can afford the rising ticket prices, which is a big part of producing revenue. And I forgot about KC.

 

As for Cincy, all I keep hearing is that the Cincy metro's going downhill fast.

 

So, baseball should only be in markets full of affluent people? :roll: I hope you're never in a position to make important decisions.

[CubfaninCA]

 

Unless someone like Cuban buys Pittsburgh, I can't see them turning it around, as they just don't produce the revenue to be real competitive. That franchise just like the city seems to be going downhill.

 

When was the last time you where in Pittsburg? I was there last year for a few Cub games over the couse of a weekend. The city is alive and well. The downtown is thriving and they have new shopping and tourism attractions.

 

IMO, the problem is that they haven't been good in a long time. If the Steelers can sell out Heinz field, the Pirates can sell out PNC.

 

Why would I want to go to Pittsburgh? Yikes! So what, they threw a bunch of government money to bring alive downtown. So did Cincy. It still doesn't change the fact that they're both old economy cities. Both places should be one sport towns. Send the baseball franchises to the East or West Coast or to Chicago.

 

Man, are you parochial, or what? The Reds and Pirates are original NL teams, they're just as proud as our Cubs. And they're not the "poor sisters" many make them out to be, it's lousy baseball teams that are the problem, not fan support or lack of underlying passion. There are nearly 7 million people in the effective Reds dominance area, including Louisville, Dayton, Columbus and Indianapolis. Pittsburgh is in a little tougher spot, but they are in better shape than KC, Milwaukee, Tampa and frankly, San Diego in terms of total fan base size.

 

Honus Wagner. Ernie Lombardi. Ted Kluszewski. Ralph Kiner. Roberto Clemente. Pops Stargell. The Big Red Machine.

 

Not sure where you're getting SD?? People near & in SD have lots of money and can afford the rising ticket prices, which is a big part of producing revenue. And I forgot about KC.

 

As for Cincy, all I keep hearing is that the Cincy metro's going downhill fast.

 

So, baseball should only be in markets full of affluent people? :roll: I hope you're never in a position to make important decisions.

 

If you want a competitive league, you need to put them either in most of the affluent regions or change the financing. Why have 5-8 organizations that are essentially minor league systems?? Some of these organizations are a joke.

 

The utopian in me prefers them going w/ tradition and keeping teams in the old cities. However, the realist in me figures there won't be a change & they need to move some organizations like Tampa & Florida, which are quite affluent btw, but for some reason don't support baseball.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

If I recall correctly, there were times when San Francisco had trouble supporting a team as well.

 

The biggest discrepancies come less from attendance than they do from T.V. contracts.

 

The best answer isn't playing musical chairs with franchises. It's having MLB face its revenue sharing problems and working to better help those franchises that don't exist within the larger markets.

[CubinNY]

They don't support baseball beacuse of bad buisnes.

 

In Tampa the owner built a god awful stadium an hour away from down town in St. Petersburg. The place is dark and well, artificial.

 

In Miami Mr. Blockbuster video wanted to build a theme park and place a baseball team in the middle. And he wanted the state and Dade county to foot the bill. They balked so he gutted then sold the team. Before that the Marlins were very popular.

 

And guess who he sold them to? Mr. "I ruined baseball in Canada". In his time as the owner of the Marlins Loria has done nothing but piss off every constituency possible. The fans, the sports writers, the city of Miami, the Miami-Dade County gov., Broward County gov. In 2003, they didn't even print up enough media guides or Programs for opening day.

 

In many respects I believe baseball survives in spite of ownership, not because of it. In Pittsburgh and KC they've lost not becuase people don't come to the ball park but because of bad baseball decisions (bad trades, bad contracts, bad drafts). Put a winner in KC and people will come. Put a winner in Pittsburgh and people will come. They did in the past and will in the future. In Cincinatti people come already. If you ever go to Wrigley (I don't know if it beneath you to travel to Chicago) when the Cubs play the Reds a good 25% of the crowd are Reds fans.

 

Baseball can survive in Florida and the midwest.

[AI]

 

Unless someone like Cuban buys Pittsburgh, I can't see them turning it around, as they just don't produce the revenue to be real competitive. That franchise just like the city seems to be going downhill.

 

When was the last time you where in Pittsburg? I was there last year for a few Cub games over the couse of a weekend. The city is alive and well. The downtown is thriving and they have new shopping and tourism attractions.

 

IMO, the problem is that they haven't been good in a long time. If the Steelers can sell out Heinz field, the Pirates can sell out PNC.

 

CubinNY, please don't take this personally because I value your opinion in all topics, but I am going to take issue with everything you said in your post.

 

Pittsburgh did a good job with the actual stadiums as far as they are great places to watch games. That's about it. Several attempted downtown renewal projects have landed the city in record debt. Each day a new developer or retailer pulls out. The mayor for the last 12 (I believe) ran the city clear into the ground. The economy is DEAD in that area and looks to remain so unless the newly elected Bob O'Connor can do something (doubtful as he was elected by the same party machine that's been running the place for 90+ years). The city is neither alive, nor well.

 

The ownership group, headed by McClatchy, but really run by a guy from WV whose name escapes me at the moment, is a joke. They pocketed their revenue sharing money instead of reinvesting it under the guise that they put it into their minor leagues. While I agree their farm has improved, that is a product of Littlefield and a scouting department that was already there, not some magical upgrade in spending. They could care less about putting a winner on the field, only turning a profit. Every few years they throw around a few huge contracts to placate a desperate fan base. This time, its Jason Bay. Unless Tracy can win with kids making next to nothing, they are in trouble and will continue to be as they will not be giving out too many more Bay-like deals.

 

The only good business going is the Steelers organization. If the Penguins don't get a new arena, they play on the oldest building in the league, they'll be on their way. Mario Lemieux can only save their bacon so many times.

 

Again, CubinNY, I didn't mean to take a swing at you, but I know my hometown too well not to react (well, overreact).[/b]

[Guest]

Put a winner in KC and people will come.

I'd agree with that. Heck, I usually make it to a couple/few Royals games a year despite the fact they're usually terrible, I live a couple hours away, and they aren't even my #1 team.

 

Then again I am a Cubs fan, so what do I know?

[Illini Iceman]

They don't support baseball beacuse of bad buisnes.

 

In Tampa the owner built a god awful stadium an hour away from down town in St. Petersburg. The place is dark and well, artificial.

 

In Miami Mr. Blockbuster video wanted to build a theme park and place a baseball team in the middle. And he wanted the state and Dade county to foot the bill. They balked so he gutted then sold the team. Before that the Marlins were very popular.

 

And guess who he sold them to? Mr. "I ruined baseball in Canada". In his time as the owner of the Marlins Loria has done nothing but piss off every constituency possible. The fans, the sports writers, the city of Miami, the Miami-Dade County gov., Broward County gov. In 2003, they didn't even print up enough media guides or Programs for opening day.

 

In many respects I believe baseball survives in spite of ownership, not because of it. In Pittsburgh and KC they've lost not becuase people don't come to the ball park but because of bad baseball decisions (bad trades, bad contracts, bad drafts). Put a winner in KC and people will come. Put a winner in Pittsburgh and people will come. They did in the past and will in the future. In Cincinatti people come already. If you ever go to Wrigley (I don't know if it beneath you to travel to Chicago) when the Cubs play the Reds a good 25% of the crowd are Reds fans.

 

Baseball can survive in Florida and the midwest.

 

Tropicana Field is not an hour away from downtown St. Petersburg and it is not dark. The biggest problem is that the team stinks so there aren't many fans in the seats. This leads to games there lacking much excitement.

[treebird]

 

Unless someone like Cuban buys Pittsburgh, I can't see them turning it around, as they just don't produce the revenue to be real competitive. That franchise just like the city seems to be going downhill.

 

When was the last time you where in Pittsburg? I was there last year for a few Cub games over the couse of a weekend. The city is alive and well. The downtown is thriving and they have new shopping and tourism attractions.

 

IMO, the problem is that they haven't been good in a long time. If the Steelers can sell out Heinz field, the Pirates can sell out PNC.

 

Why would I want to go to Pittsburgh? Yikes! So what, they threw a bunch of government money to bring alive downtown. So did Cincy. It still doesn't change the fact that they're both old economy cities. Both places should be one sport towns. Send the baseball franchises to the East or West Coast or to Chicago.

 

Man, are you parochial, or what? The Reds and Pirates are original NL teams, they're just as proud as our Cubs. And they're not the "poor sisters" many make them out to be, it's lousy baseball teams that are the problem, not fan support or lack of underlying passion. There are nearly 7 million people in the effective Reds dominance area, including Louisville, Dayton, Columbus and Indianapolis. Pittsburgh is in a little tougher spot, but they are in better shape than KC, Milwaukee, Tampa and frankly, San Diego in terms of total fan base size.

 

Honus Wagner. Kent. Need I say more?

 

fixed

[Careless]

Putting all the economic and sociological arguments aside, I can tell you Pittsburgh is one of my favorite cities (FWIW). It's really an underrated gem. The people are extremely friendly, and there are some great places to eat and drink.

PNC Park is just beautiful, and Pittsburgh's skyline provides a nice backdrop. (Too bad the press box is too high. Just like a writer to complain.)

I agree. I always enjoy going to pit, though the last time I went to a ballgame there it was behind a structural support at 3 rivers

[Careless]

 

Unless someone like Cuban buys Pittsburgh, I can't see them turning it around, as they just don't produce the revenue to be real competitive. That franchise just like the city seems to be going downhill.

 

When was the last time you where in Pittsburg? I was there last year for a few Cub games over the couse of a weekend. The city is alive and well. The downtown is thriving and they have new shopping and tourism attractions.

 

IMO, the problem is that they haven't been good in a long time. If the Steelers can sell out Heinz field, the Pirates can sell out PNC.

 

Why would I want to go to Pittsburgh? Yikes! So what, they threw a bunch of government money to bring alive downtown. So did Cincy. It still doesn't change the fact that they're both old economy cities. Both places should be one sport towns. Send the baseball franchises to the East or West Coast or to Chicago.

 

Man, are you parochial, or what? The Reds and Pirates are original NL teams, they're just as proud as our Cubs. And they're not the "poor sisters" many make them out to be, it's lousy baseball teams that are the problem, not fan support or lack of underlying passion. There are nearly 7 million people in the effective Reds dominance area, including Louisville, Dayton, Columbus and Indianapolis. Pittsburgh is in a little tougher spot, but they are in better shape than KC, Milwaukee, Tampa and frankly, San Diego in terms of total fan base size.

 

Honus Wagner. Ernie Lombardi. Ted Kluszewski. Ralph Kiner. Roberto Clemente. Pops Stargell. The Big Red Machine.

 

Not sure where you're getting SD?? People near & in SD have lots of money and can afford the rising ticket prices, which is a big part of producing revenue. And I forgot about KC.

 

As for Cincy, all I keep hearing is that the Cincy metro's going downhill fast.

 

So, baseball should only be in markets full of affluent people? :roll: I hope you're never in a position to make important decisions.

 

If you want a competitive league, you need to put them either in most of the affluent regions or change the financing. Why have 5-8 organizations that are essentially minor league systems?? Some of these organizations are a joke.

 

The utopian in me prefers them going w/ tradition and keeping teams in the old cities. However, the realist in me figures there won't be a change & they need to move some organizations like Tampa & Florida, which are quite affluent btw, but for some reason don't support baseball.

Poor green bay packers, with a metropolitan area 1/30th the size of the larger markets. Oh, wait, the NFL is set up so that yo don't have to suck if yiu're a small market team. What, you mean that's actually possible?

[CubinNY]

 

Tropicana Field is not an hour away from downtown St. Petersburg and it is not dark. The biggest problem is that the team stinks so there aren't many fans in the seats. This leads to games there lacking much excitement.

 

No it is an hour away from Tampa and it is in St. Petersburg (sorry if I wasn't clear in the last post). At least it took me an hour to get there from Ybor City the one time I went.

 

To me the stadium had the feel of an empty warehouse. Maybe they didn't have the lights turned up or something but it was like a night game.

 

but the biggest problem is the owner. Agree?